View Full Version : Lets talk FFB PC, PS4, XBox1
The concept that the FFB master default is recommended as a maximum on consoles with wheels that don't have any internal attenuation (e.g. Thrustmaster, Logitech) was of course in response to the blanket statement that the FFB master must be set to 100, which was the recommendation of PC players who weren't aware of the fact that consoles don't have the final driver Control Panel attenuation stage. Many console players were following this without understanding the system, as was evidenced by a lot of false assumptions regarding the source of the available forces and the signal chain.
The most important fact regarding the placement of the FFB master is that it is after telemetry, so it is essential that anyone who is boosting it past the default for their wheel in the console versions of the game understands this point, and realises that if they are counting on their telemetry readings to avoid clipping, they will need to allow for a degree of headroom to compensate for any boosting of the signal to the wheel at the FFB master, particularly with wheels that don't have any further means of integrated attenuation. This is particularly the case for the T300, which has shown itself to have a weakness and sensitivity to overly strong FFB forces, demonstrated by FFB 'fade' at best, and total failure and the need for replacement at worst. The best recommendation for these wheels is to err on the side of caution, which generally translates as using the telemetry for its designed purpose, and further avoiding post telemetry clipping at the wheel by not boosting the FFB master past its recommended default for that wheel.
Obviously, advanced tweakers can run their settings however they choose, driving and attenuating the system at whichever points give them the desired result. The advice here is for those who are still somewhat baffled by the system, or who are still looking to optimise their own experience for a particular wheel and may not be able to distinguish the difference between detail and post telemetry clipping at output.
GrimeyDog
22-02-2016, 14:52
The concept that the FFB master default is recommended as a maximum on consoles with wheels that don't have any internal attenuation (e.g. Thrustmaster, Logitech) was of course in response to the blanket statement that the FFB master must be set to 100, which was the recommendation of PC players who weren't aware of the fact that consoles don't have the final driver Control Panel attenuation stage. Many console players were following this without understanding the system, as was evidenced by a lot of false assumptions regarding the source of the available forces and the signal chain.
The most important fact regarding the placement of the FFB master is that it is after telemetry, so it is essential that anyone who is boosting it past the default for their wheel in the console versions of the game understands this point, and realises that if they are counting on their telemetry readings to avoid clipping, they will need to allow for a degree of headroom to compensate for any boosting of the signal to the wheel at the FFB master, particularly with wheels that don't have any further means of integrated attenuation. This is particularly the case for the T300, which has shown itself to have a weakness and sensitivity to overly strong FFB forces, demonstrated by FFB 'fade' at best, and total failure and the need for replacement at worst. The best recommendation for these wheels is to err on the side of caution, which generally translates as using the telemetry for its designed purpose, and further avoiding post telemetry clipping at the wheel by not boosting the FFB master past its recommended default for that wheel.
Obviously, advanced tweakers can run their settings however they choose, driving and attenuating the system at whichever points give them the desired result. The advice here is for those who are still somewhat baffled by the system, or who are still looking to optimise their own experience for a particular wheel and may not be able to distinguish the difference between detail and post telemetry clipping at output.
as usual GREAT post wahwah!!!
Wahwah what FFB settings have you settled with???
GrimeyDog
22-02-2016, 16:16
I think it can make a big difference, if you change them from default. I'm not on PC, but changing the SPr setting to 50 on my wheel (default was 100), makes a huge difference in a wheel strength. I've also set the Dri to 3, which is a setting that lightens the wheel and provides a little more fidelity. As far as I know, there's no way to replicate that function on non Fanatec wheels or without the additional parameters in an external driver control panel.
Exactly! Which is why I think the blanket statement/rule that FF=100 is bad is misleading, because... One, it's only bad if you're not attenuating the strength elsewhere. And two, it's also wheel dependent.
The SPR only Needs to be set for games that use the SPR to create FFB effects...PCars FFB is Dynamic its Not a SPR based type FFB.......the Last gen Codemasters games used that SPR based FFB if im correct... I dont Know about Now but F1 2015 feels like it still uses it
IMO when you Need to change the SPR and Drift settings on the wheel from the defaults... Thats a indicator that you can better fine tune your settings to properly adjust wheel weight... The only time i would change the DrI setteings is if i were Drifting and i Needed the wheel to Snap back to center Quicly.
Maybe if you lower your GM FFB the wheel weight will reduce and you can use DRI and SPR at the Default wheel settings... just a thought.
Wahwah what FFB settings have you settled with???
They're up on the oscarolim site for anyone who might like to try them, but the basic approach is to shave a little off both ends of the chain, so TF and Steering Gain are at 90 and .90. With the default Relative Adjust and Scoop settings, this ensures no clipping at telemetry, but a broad enough dynamic range to feel all the forces. No Soft Clipping. FFB master set to 75 (Default for T300 on PS4). In-car I generally start with Jack's Classic settings, but I will often drop some Fx and Fz, depending on the car. I'm using a G27 pedal set (paired to the T300 with the Ricmotech adapter), but with all of the springs replaced with the GTEYE springs, including his excellent progressive brake spring, so I'm really not looking to Fx to give me braking information through my hands. The thing about Fx is that it is the fastest transient of any of the forces, and I find that set too high, it can be disruptive to entry into corners. I like enough Fz to be immersive, but not so much that it becomes a distraction. Depending on the car, I will often add some Sop Lat, so ultimately I'm looking for a nice balance between lateral forces and Mz to give me weight transfer and grip information.
It's a moderate approach which is kind to the T300, and as a result I'm able to avoid the common 'fading' problems with those wheels. Patch 9.0 has played right into this and feels balanced and informative, without being a distraction. I found early on that the game is too good to spend an inordinate amount of time 'chasing the dragon' when it comes to FFB. There's only so much a T300 can do, so staying within its thresholds and respecting its limitations has yielded a fantastic, usable interface to a brilliant game.
smartin13
22-02-2016, 18:09
The SPR only Needs to be set for games that use the SPR to create FFB effects...PCars FFB is Dynamic its Not a SPR based type FFB.......the Last gen Codemasters games used that SPR based FFB if im correct... I dont Know about Now but F1 2015 feels like it still uses it
IMO when you Need to change the SPR and Drift settings on the wheel from the defaults... Thats a indicator that you can better fine tune your settings to properly adjust wheel weight... The only time i would change the DrI setteings is if i were Drifting and i Needed the wheel to Snap back to center Quicly.
Maybe if you lower your GM FFB the wheel weight will reduce and you can use DRI and SPR at the Default wheel settings... just a thought.
SPR is needed for that settings:
Menu Spring Strength: 0.40
Low Speed Spring Coefficient: 0.75
Low Speed Spring Saturation: 1.00
tennenbaum
22-02-2016, 18:43
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8GQCZgCNw8&index=8&list=LLC8nygV2cxirmiTbS0_qHSA
Have any of you watched this entire Video??? There is Great information in this Video... It explains alot about the Tire Physics that go into Creating a tire Model for a Sim Racing Game... Pay close attention at the 30min mark where he talks about Divergence... Its Really Great information.... I Know tenenbaum and Poirqc will love this Video!!!
Edit: tenenbaum/ Poirq / Jack Spade I have a Special interest to know what you think about what is said at the 30min mark regarding Divergence.
You guessed right, :D indeed, i was loving that video!. Great finding! I was referring to Brian Beckman a couple of weeks ago when i discussed* with Haiden why i think Spring Menu strength setting is s signal that goes though a separate effect channel of the wheels interface. (...) because of the possible problem of computations at lower speeds... (divergent by 0)
Besides: I love how laid back he is while explaining really crazy stuff... Best part is when he says how he replaced the Pacejka formula with a simpler thermodynamic formula, due the limited cpu power of the xbox. Well now we know why Forza 6 drives so bubbly...:D (At least his tire model does a lot of things right that pCars doesn't...)
*http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1216078&viewfull=1#post1216078
That's actually where i learned a lot about Mz. Well, from the parts of the video i was capable to follow... ;-)
Though Mz alone without taking positive and negative scrub radius into account is only half the picture. (...pity the game doesn't give access to king pin inclination). Frankly it took me the longest to realize how pCars really utilizes the Fxyzm tire force model. It looks simpler as it really is. That was one of the reasons why i was researching if Mz is really the tire force... and so on. Because mostly the FFB system is logical, but you can't fully rely on that assumption. Imo there are still 3 big question marks left: 1.) Why is Arm Angle on the FFB side and not part of the practical mechanical set up? 2.) Why is Fz "inverse" for all cars except seven. And why is Fz relatively stronger than Fx? 3.) Does RAG generates signal artefacts with higher settings?
Krus Control
22-02-2016, 19:01
1.) Why is Arm Angle on the FFB side and not part of the practical mechanical set up? 2.) Why is Fz "inverse" for all cars except seven. And why is Fx relatively stronger than Fx? 3.) Does RAG generates signal artefacts with higher settings?
The arm angle does not affect the car's physics, but the FFB delivery only. It changes the arm angle in the FFB delivery without affecting the car's physical model in the game. Can't answer 2 or 3 for you though. I haven't experienced artifacting from RAG settings. I have had spikes and strange behavior (especially on curbs for some reason) if gain is balanced in certain ways. Like I found if steering gain is too low it causes strange things to happen (such as random spiking and noise) when you raise other forces. I honestly can't explain why though.
The SPR only Needs to be set for games that use the SPR to create FFB effects...PCars FFB is Dynamic its Not a SPR based type FFB.......the Last gen Codemasters games used that SPR based FFB if im correct... I dont Know about Now but F1 2015 feels like it still uses it
IMO when you Need to change the SPR and Drift settings on the wheel from the defaults... Thats a indicator that you can better fine tune your settings to properly adjust wheel weight... The only time i would change the DrI setteings is if i were Drifting and i Needed the wheel to Snap back to center Quicly.
Maybe if you lower your GM FFB the wheel weight will reduce and you can use DRI and SPR at the Default wheel settings... just a thought.
I'm using Jack's global settings, which had SPr set to 50. I tried it at 100, and all it did was increase the wheel weight. There was no change in the range or detail. I also tried what you suggested above--lowering FF in lieu of SPr and turning Dri OFF. In fact, that was my first route, because I assumed the same as you did. But that changed the feel of the wheel, and I also lost the progressive/dynamic cornering force I feel with Jack's settings. I've tried Jack's setting a number of ways, making adjustments here and there. But whenever I significantly lower FF, the feel changes and doesn't seem to have the same fidelity. So I'm done with that and keeping FF/TF at 100/75. The wheel isn't overheating, nor losing power after long term use. I run plenty of long races (20-40 laps) and sometimes play for hours on end. I haven't encountered any problems since I've been using his settings.
Regardless, though... IMO both SPr and Dri do have an effect on the feel and/or weight of the wheel, so there's no reason they can't or shouldn't be used. It just comes down to tuning approach and preference. There are a lot of tools in the bag. Which ones you use is up to you, and sometimes a different mix of tools can be used to achieve the same result. So, in the end, it's kind of moot. :)
Edit: Also, I'm not sure that's what Dri is for. Taken from the Fanatec manual: "The drift mode reduces the overall resistance of the wheel and let you turn the
wheel more easily."
It actually goes on to say that if you experience oscillation it's probably set too high, or just not needed/compatible with that particular game. That sounds more like the snapping back you're talking about. Because when it's set right, there is no snappiness to the wheel. It's just a little lighter, which allows for a little more fidelity without lowering FF and upsetting the balance.
tennenbaum
22-02-2016, 19:39
The arm angle does not affect the car's physics, but the FFB delivery only. It changes the arm angle in the FFB delivery without affecting the car's physical model in the game. Can't answer 2 or 3 for you though. I haven't experienced artifacting from RAG settings. I have had spikes and strange behavior (especially on curbs for some reason) if gain is balanced in certain ways. Like I found if steering gain is too low it causes strange things to happen (such as random spiking and noise) when you raise other forces. I honestly can't explain why though.
Yep, that's exactly what i mean, arm angle doesn't effect the pCars' physics, while in reality changing the arm angle changes the car's physics a lot. That's why i think arm angle belongs into the physics area of the set up. (You wouldn't want to loose the adjustment of caster and toe in the set up, just to put it on the FFB only delivery side, would you?) But arguing arm angle always reminds me a bit of the chicken-egg-problem...;)
GrimeyDog
22-02-2016, 19:44
SPR is needed for that settings:
Menu Spring Strength: 0.40
Low Speed Spring Coefficient: 0.75
Low Speed Spring Saturation: 1.00
Agree about the game having its own spring settings.. in My post i was referring to the SPR/DRI Settings on the Fanatec wheels that when the in game FFB settings are balanced right that the default wheel SPR/DRI settings work well.
Krus Control
22-02-2016, 19:51
Yep, that's exactly what i mean, arm angle doesn't effect the pCars' physics, while in reality changing the arm angle changes the car's physics a lot. That's why i think arm angle belongs into the physics area of the set up. (You wouldn't want to loose the adjustment of caster and toe in the set up, just to put it on the FFB only delivery side, would you?) But arguing arm angle always reminds me a bit of the chicken-egg-problem...;)
For me it's pretty clean cut, though I do see what you're saying. Think of it like this; if you are using a gamepad then no change to arm angle will ever produce any difference in your gameplay (or anything in the FFB section), but changes to caster and toe will.
Agree about the game having its own spring settings.. in My post i was referring to the SPR/DRI Settings on the Fanatec wheels that when the in game FFB settings are balanced right that the default wheel SPR/DRI settings work well.
IDK... I find it hard to believe that Fanatec built and added these settings to simply help people compensate for unbalanced in-game settings--which probably isn't a huge outside of PCars, anyway. To me, it seems more likely that these settings were provided for additional fine tuning beyond, or in complement to, what a game allows. Kind of like a use them if you want to kind of scenario. Which is why I think it's just a preference/approach thing.
tennenbaum
22-02-2016, 20:36
For me it's pretty clean cut, though I do see what you're saying. Think of it like this; if you are using a gamepad then no change to arm angle will ever produce any difference in your gameplay (or anything in the FFB section), but changes to caster and toe will.
sim of physics is sim of physics, gamepad or wheel. but to keep it on the light side: my indecision is final! ;)
GrimeyDog
22-02-2016, 20:36
IDK... I find it hard to believe that Fanatec built and added these settings to simply help people compensate for unbalanced in-game settings--which probably isn't a huge outside of PCars, anyway. To me, it seems more likely that these settings were provided for additional fine tuning beyond, or in complement to, what a game allows. Kind of like a use them if you want to kind of scenario. Which is why I think it's just a preference/approach thing.
Agree... its all about choice...The DRI is a Drifting setting... It reduces drag to Make Drifting easyer... especially with Forza.
the SPR i used to make the codemasters games Feel better... I forget what the recomended settings were though... Grid, Dirt, F1 for the 360.
But agree they are just good settings to be used as Needed... It was just a random thought because the tools are there to fine tune and tweek the game for the wheel... but yes the Fanatec wheels can be tuned to the game also.
Agree... its all about choice...The DRI is a Drifting setting... It reduces drag to Make Drifting easyer... especially with Forza.
the SPR i used to make the codemasters games Feel better... I forget what the recomended settings were though... Grid, Dirt, F1 for the 360.
But agree they are just good settings to be used as Needed... It was just a random thought because the tools are there to fine tune and tweek the game for the wheel... but yes the Fanatec wheels can be tuned to the game also.
Yeah... I'm sure I could adjust RAC or SG to a point that allowed me to set wheel SPr to 100, but it works at 50, and I don't feel like recreating the wheel (ha...didn't intend the pun, but it fits :) ) Dri is a different story, though. I started messing with this back when I first got my CSW. Even back then, I remember thinking that I liked the feel of it. But I didn't really know what it was doing, and still needed to tune the other settings, so I turned it off and basically forgot about it.
But all in all, I think Jack's settings are well-balanced. And my only gripe is personal--I wish had of tried them when I first got my CSW-v2...LOL. Although, sometimes the universe has a strange sense of timing. I say that because if I had tried them back then, they might have felt so foreign that I might have rejected them. It took a little bit of time to get used to the feel of the CSW-v2 alone. But now, I can honestly say that, when coupled with his in-car tunes, these are the best settings I ever felt in PCars. I've been running through the car list, trying as many as I can, and everything feels really good to me.
I tried a number of different variations, but always kept coming back to his recommended scales. The only change I made that stuck was DRR, which I set to 0.03, instead of Jack's recommended 0.05. Other than that, I'm running his globals as-is. I do bump the Master and SoP Scale up 4-10 increments, though. I usually only go up to ten when I'm using the heavier GT rim. When I use the F1 rim, an additional 2 or 4 increments is usually enough.
GrimeyDog
23-02-2016, 01:18
02/23/2016 ---->>> Changed TF & RAG to 98http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/images/smilies/tickyes.png
Small changes Made...Updated PDF with Strong, Medium, Mild RAC settings.
also added Basic/Suggested settings for FWD cars.... I will be fine tuning for FWD cars.
Nice... its all coming together!!! I reduced the FFB effects by lowering RAC.... there are 3 different RAC settings to choose from...When you Reduce the RAC this allows you to turn up GM FFB to add back wheel weight that might be lost by Reducing RAC/ FFB Effects Strength.
RAC 88 and Tuned GM FFB to 45 very Nice Wheel weight, Calmer Wheel with Milder FFB forces... Due to the easier to Manage FFB forces/ Smoother FFB i can allready see my lap times Dropping!!!
If all stays the same with 10.0... it will be time to tune the cars!!! Vrooom Vrooom!!!
02/22/2016
Small changes Made...Updated PDF with Strong, Medium, Mild RAC settings.
also added Basic/Suggested settings for FWD cars.... I will be fine tuning for FWD cars.
Nice... its all coming together!!! I reduced the FFB effects by lowering RAC.... there are 3 different RAC settings to choose from...When you Reduce the RAC this allows you to turn up GM FFB to add back wheel weight that might be lost by Reducing RAC/ FFB Effects Strength.
RAC 88 and Tuned GM FFB to 45 very Nice Wheel weight, Calmer Wheel with Milder FFB forces... Due to the easier to Manage FFB forces/ Smoother FFB i can allready see my lap times Dropping!!!
If all stays the same with 10.0... it will be time to tune the cars!!! Vrooom Vrooom!!!
Thanks for that. I'm keen to try out something with milder forces. My T300 on mainly default settings gave me wrist pain!!
spacepadrille
23-02-2016, 08:51
Hi All ! Like usual a lot of very good things to read on this post ! I liked a lot whawha's last contributions ;-) So I tried whawha's settings, and despite the numbers seems different from morpw's ones, the result is very similar in terms of weight and global feeling, I mean it's EXCELLENT ! I have to test more with more cars, but it's difficult to say which one I prefer, and my laptimes are quite same (both used with JS Classic in-car).
I have a question for T300 users : after a race or a cession, how long does it take for the fan cooling system of the wheel to shut down ? I do not have any fading issue, my wheel is new (the previous one was destroyed by too strong FFB use) but I wonder if it's "normal" that my wheel's fan takes sometimes 3 to 5 minutes to shut down. I don't have any device to mesure the t° like Grimey...
PureMalt77
23-02-2016, 10:02
Hi All ! Like usual a lot of very good things to read on this post ! I liked a lot whawha's last contributions ;-) So I tried whawha's settings, and despite the numbers seems different from morpw's ones, the result is very similar in terms of weight and global feeling, I mean it's EXCELLENT ! I have to test more with more cars, but it's difficult to say which one I prefer, and my laptimes are quite same (both used with JS Classic in-car).
I have a question for T300 users : after a race or a cession, how long does it take for the fan cooling system of the wheel to shut down ? I do not have any fading issue, my wheel is new (the previous one was destroyed by too strong FFB use) but I wonder if it's "normal" that my wheel's fan takes sometimes 3 to 5 minutes to shut down. I don't have any device to mesure the t° like Grimey...
3-5 min is perfectly normal
GrimeyDog
23-02-2016, 12:29
The more i look at it the more Pcars FFB is like Codmasters 3 slider FFB system.
GM FFB = at the wheel FFB power
TF = Wheel weight
RAC = Environment FFB Level Control...Bumps, Curbs etc.
the only difference is with Pcars you can dial in the effects Fx,Fy etc that you want to feel most... then use the scoop settings to Sharpen or Dull the FFB forces per taste or wheel used to maximise the effect.... Basicly i still see and use all the sliders/Settings as Volume controls.
The problem is Choice!!! Because we have these settings available we all still chase the Unicorn Looking for the Majic FFB....IMO most of the settings should have been Hidden behind a advanced settings Tab... We see More so we want to use more... But in this case to Me Less = More.
9.0 tire model i No longer Need such a Strong FFB to feel the FFB effects that i Need to feel to run fast laps...it sems that the Finer FFB forces are more up front and present and that allows me to use a Lower RAC setting to reduce the Harsh FFB effects that Higher RAC gives. Ex: Watkins Glen the Start finish paint can still be felt using lower RAC... this allows the FFB to be tweeked to provided Greater fidelity and feel without Having to turn up the RAC/FFB forces which can cause the wheel to feel Heavy and Too Strong...It also allows the use of Higher GM FFB to adjust at the wheel FFB power and weight that may be lost due to Lower RAC without fear of damage to wheel... its all about balance.... Hmmm Very interesting its finaly all coming together.
When you really think about it... You see it for what it is... what seperates 1 Sim Racing game VS another Sim racing game is Not really the FFB its the Physics of the different games... Some games have better more advanced Physics than others and that is conveyed to the player through the FFB....its Not that 1 has a better FFB model than the other 1... FFB delivery has Not changed Much but the Physics programming Has... Not even MS with their New FFB protocol for XB1 is the FFB delivery better... IMO PS4, PC FFB delivery is better, its old perfected tec... Maybe XB1 FFB delivery will be better or the Best in the future its still New Tec...but as it is Now FFB is FFB we just have a few more tools that we can use in Pcars to shape it how we prefer it according to individual FFB taste.
Conclusion i will continue to tweek Pcars FFB using the Sliders/Settings as Volume controls + or - each setting until it feels to my liking and thats that... If it feels Good then it is Good.... LOL... Simplicity is the key.
redruMKO
23-02-2016, 18:12
You guessed right..... Imo there are still 3 big question marks left: 1.) Why is Arm Angle on the FFB side and not part of the practical mechanical set up? 2.) Why is Fz "inverse" for all cars except seven. And why is Fz relatively stronger than Fx? 3.) Does RAG generates signal artefacts with higher settings?
Great Q's. Especially number 1 & 2.
..and for my part I hate RA. So YES to #4. I've been running all 3 RAs at zero for a while now and love it.
This FFB tune was created for the CSW-v2 wheel. I started with Jack Spade's global settings and made some adjustments. The red highlighted values are the scales that I recommended testing at lower/higher increments, if you're looking to adapt these settings to other wheels. Per Wheel Movement settings are to reduce drag on Fanatec wheels, and differs per model. Non-Fanatec wheels probably don’t need this and can leave these scales at default.
*Note: Currently, the @wheel FF on Fanatac wheels is overriding the game’s global FF. Keeping these values the same or close will hopefully makes things easier for me if that control changes down the road.
Fanatec CSW V2 Wheel base settings:
Sens: AUT | FF: 100 | SHo: 100 | ABS: 85 | Lin: OFF | Dea: OFF | Dri: OFF | For: 100 | Spr: 100 | Dpr: 100 | Brf: 80
Driver settings: Driver/FW 231/142
------------------------------------------------------------
In-game, Global FFB Settings:
Tire Force: 80
Force Feedback: 100
Per Wheel Movement: -0.06
Per Wheel Movement Squared: 0.03
Wheel Position Smoothing: 0.04
Deadzone Removal Range: 0.02
Deadzone Removal Falloff: 0.015 (=0.01 + 5 clicks to the right)
Linkage Scale: 0.00
Linkage Stiffness: 1.00
Linkage Damping: 1.00
Relative Adjust Gain: 1.50
Relative Adjust Bleed: 0.04
Relative Adjust Clamp: 0.85
Scoop Knee: 0.00 (Wheel Specific)
Scoop Reduction: 0.00 (Wheel Specific)
Soft Clipping (half input): 0.00
Soft Clipping (full input): 0.00
Menu Spring Strength: 0.30
Low Speed Spring Coefficient: 0.75
Low Speed Spring Saturation: 1.00
Steering gain: 1.00
Sensitivity and Deadzones:
Steering Sensitivity: 60 (higher settings 70-80 feel too twitchy with the Open Wheel classes)
Braking Sensitivity: 90
Throttle Sensitivity: 90
Also, there's a discussion going on here about adapting Jack's setting to other wheels on PS4. Might be helpful.
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?45209-All-ps4-steering-wheel-pilots-should-read-Especially-jack-spade-and-Morpwr
GrimeyDog
23-02-2016, 22:20
Note I have changed the TF & RAG in My PDF back to 98:yes: for All RAC settings...
it helps keeps the wheel Light and responsive.
Good stuff Haiden. Those settings are nearly like mine that i adapted to my Fanatec GT2 wheel . Not that it took much adapting. lol.
DRI works really well on my wheel to free up the drag of the belt/motor . It doesn't speed up the wheel just loosens it up on DRI 3 . On DRI 5 it feels alittle to fast and free . With it off however it feels dull and lifeless.
I'm done with ffb tuning . This is it ."as good as it gets "
THANKS to all for your help . In the end JS setting are the go in my opinion.
For a wheel that feels progressive in weight ,great road feel ,curbs bumps and all the car inputs .
Get racing .
DRI can be replicated in game for other brands of wheels using the
Per wheel movement and
Per wheel movement squared but i find DRI on wheel just as affective and just so easy .
GrimeyDog
24-02-2016, 02:36
While i was testing the Lower RAC settings to Lighten the FFB to give more options to those that want Lighter FFB using My Tweek... I got sucked into the Rabbit Hole Chasing the Unicorn Again!!! for My FFB taste im there... I Created a Lighter FFB with same Feel... i got caught up in looking for better Feel and 5 hour later im back to My original Settings... LOL
Im Sooo Mad that I even attempted to chase the Unicorn again!!!
:D yes, it's the chicane somebody started to call "bus stop". i see it exactly the same: the long "sweeper" teaches me about my inconsistent feeling with all the different settings - i simply can't find a consistent line. Sometimes i leave it (when i hit the curbs at the end of that long stretched curve) with 186 km/h, sometimes with 194 km/h. Its more luck than precise steering, and i blame the FFB that i can't properly read... And of course the last two corners... they hinder you to crack the 1.07.000 and me to crack the 1.08.000. It's wicked...
vrhive: me mac too. used bootcamp - perfect. (tried parallels and an other virtualization... gave up on them, too complicated, never worked well for me.)
Try turning the sensitivity up to 100. I was having the same problem the first part of turn in always felt like I was guessing. Really hurts you in the bus stop and the last two corners. Tried everything to get rid of it. Turned it up to 100 and was running over the corners for the first few laps.lol How I was used to turning the wheel didn't work anymore. Try turning the sensitivity down to 35 and see how hard it is to even make a corner. You may not want it as high but it definitely helped with a more direct precise feel.
Morpwr are you still using the same global settings as on page 163? Just wondering if you have found better?
Good stuff Haiden. Those settings are nearly like mine that i adapted to my Fanatec GT2 wheel . Not that it took much adapting. lol.
DRI works really well on my wheel to free up the drag of the belt/motor . It doesn't speed up the wheel just loosens it up on DRI 3 . On DRI 5 it feels alittle to fast and free . With it off however it feels dull and lifeless.
I'm done with ffb tuning . This is it ."as good as it gets "
THANKS to all for your help . In the end JS setting are the go in my opinion.
For a wheel that feels progressive in weight ,great road feel ,curbs bumps and all the car inputs .
Get racing .
Yep. That's how I feel about Jack's settings. I tried making numerous adjustments, but the only thing that improved them for my personal tastes was the lower deadzone settings. Funny you mention the drag. I remember reading about that when I was researching the Fanatec wheels before my purchase. DRI was the recommended adjustment. I think 3 is the best setting, too. I went back and forth between 2 and 3, but settled on three in the end.
I'm also done with the tuning. This is the best feel I've had in the wheel--excellent dynamic range and great fidelity. There's nothing left to do, but race. :)
tennenbaum
24-02-2016, 07:37
Try turning the sensitivity up to 100. I was having the same problem the first part of turn in always felt like I was guessing. Really hurts you in the bus stop and the last two corners. Tried everything to get rid of it. Turned it up to 100 and was running over the corners for the first few laps.lol How I was used to turning the wheel didn't work anymore. Try turning the sensitivity down to 35 and see how hard it is to even make a corner. You may not want it as high but it definitely helped with a more direct precise feel.
sounds good! will try :-)
tennenbaum
24-02-2016, 07:43
While i was testing the Lower RAC settings to Lighten the FFB to give more options to those that want Lighter FFB using My Tweek... I got sucked into the Rabbit Hole Chasing the Unicorn Again!!! for My FFB taste im there... I Created a Lighter FFB with same Feel... i got caught up in looking for better Feel and 5 hour later im back to My original Settings... LOL
Im Sooo Mad that I even attempted to chase the Unicorn again!!!
when you lower RAC you decrease dynamic range. spikes still go to full dynamic headroom, but your main wheel weight, thus what's important for your driving line, operates in a smaller range. therfore less differentiation. ...but you know that anyway ;-)
Tiberius_85
24-02-2016, 08:48
I've been running all 3 RAs at zero for a while now and love it.
Hi redruMKO, which wheel are you on and what are your settings? I ask because I am undecided if i want to use RAs or not so it might be interesting to test your set. At the moment I have them on but quite low.
[...]
The only adjustments I make to Jack's in-car tweaks are:
1) Increase the Master and SoP Scales. I have an F1 rim and a GT rim. Two to three increments is usually enough for cars I drive with the F1 rim, but GT rim w/the universal HUB is heavier, so I usually increase the Master scales 6-10 increments to compensate for the amount of force being absorbed by it's additional weight.
[...]
Haiden, why don't you just raise TF a little instead of all Master and SoP scales? The effects should be the same, you only have to change the scales on some cars that may still be a little off.
Note I have changed the TF & RAG in My PDF back to 98:yes: for All RAC settings...
it helps keeps the wheel Light and responsive.
So what happens if you put TF/RAG to 1.00, does the wheel explode? :D
GrimeyDog
24-02-2016, 11:52
when you lower RAC you decrease dynamic range. spikes still go to full dynamic headroom, but your main wheel weight, thus what's important for your driving line, operates in a smaller range. therfore less differentiation. ...but you know that anyway ;-)
Heres the thing tenenbaum i cant feel any loss of Dynamic Range when i lower RAC...IMO what i noticed from testing is RAC Reduces FFB effects Power Not Fidelity... all Forces can still be felt same just Not as Strong.
In Not even sure the Steering Gain that Lowers Dynamic Range...when you reduce steering gain it shrinks the FFB Graph according to where you reduce it to...ex @90 graph will only use 90% of FFB graph Box.
RAG IMO maybe what reduces Dynamic Range...When i Reduce RAG i can Clearly feel a Change in the Dynamics of the FFB...Even subtle RAG changes 98, 99, 100 the difference can be felt in the v2 wheel... 98 the wheel is a tad bit lighter in the center of the wheel, @100 the center of the wheel feels full and that Full feeling is consistent and even through out the entire turning range barring that you are Not hitting Bumps or Curbs.... RAG is very strange!!! When i reduce RAG to 0 the FFB "Effects" become very Muted and Not clearly felt, the wheel becomes very Smooth and even with a spring like tension feel at the center...to best decribe it.
This RAG question may open up a whole New can of Tweeker worms!!!
Test this...set RAC to 92 and RAG to 0 and tell Me what you feel?
this Video shows RAC at 50% All FFB "Effects" can be Clearly felt just at 50% Power... Note how the main FFB line stays to the Middle of the FFB Graph Box but the FFB Spike will still use the Full FFB Graph Box... Conclusion is RAC will Not reduce Dynamic Range.
Note: this video is from a few months ago and i don't recall what update Ocars was on... maybe 5.0 or 6.0...But take Note to How active the Graph is!!! Thats Laguna Seca Much Smoother than Watkins Glen but even at RAC 50 the FFB picks up all changes in Road surface and Car weight transfer...My Tweek formula Has Not Changed and is still the same.
https://youtu.be/o7U3q2uKDuM
Note when i speak of RAG i Note FFB "Effects" Curbs, Bumps
IMO RAG rules the "Spring based FFB" settings Torque/Counter steering Torque
its getting complicated Again:confused:... LOL
GrimeyDog
24-02-2016, 12:15
So what happens if you put TF/RAG to 1.00, does the wheel explode? :D
LOL...Nothing Happens... It just helps keep the whel Lighter in the Center for those that want a Lighter Not soo Strong FFB.... The Diff can be Felt at 98 the wheel center is a Tad lighter at 100 the wheel feels Full and even through out the entire turning range.
to Me they all Feel Good...im just having a Hard time deciding... LOL... Still Chasing the Unicorn FFB!!! LOL
tennenbaum
24-02-2016, 12:18
Heres the thing tenenbaum i cant feel any loss of Dynamic Range when i lower RAC...IMO what i noticed from testing is RAC Reduces FFB effects Power Not Fidelity... all Forces can still be felt same just Not as Strong.
In Not even sure the Steering Gain that Lowers Dynamic Range...when you reduce steering gain it shrinks the FFB Graph according to where you reduce it to...ex @90 graph will only use 90% of FFB graph Box.
RAG IMO maybe what reduces Dynamic Range...When i Reduce RAG i can Clearly feel a Change in the Dynamics of the FFB...Even subtle RAG changes 98, 99, 100 the difference can be felt in the v2 wheel... 98 the wheel is a tad bit lighter in the center of the wheel, @100 the center of the wheel feels full and that Full feeling is consistent and even through out the entire turning range barring that you are Not hitting Bumps or Curbs.... RAG is very strange!!! When i reduce RAG to 0 the FFB "Effects" become very Muted and Not clearly felt, the wheel becomes very Smooth and even with a spring like tension feel at the center...to best decribe it.
This RAG question may open up a whole New can of Tweeker worms!!!
Test this...set RAC to 92 and RAG to 0 and tell Me what you feel?
this Video shows RAC at 50% All FFB "Effects" can be Clearly felt just at 50% Power.. Conclusion is RAC will Not reduce Dynamic Range.
this video is from abfew months ago.
https://youtu.be/o7U3q2uKDuM
EDIT: Below i called the "Snake Line" the "Snail-Line"... I meant the "Snake-Line".
RAC: You're right the dynamic didn't change the way you look at it (and define it) by setting RAC to 50%: The spikes still go up to 100 (mainly caused by Fz) . But your "snail" line - mainly caused by SoP Diff, a bit by Fz and and a bit lesser Fy (with your usual settings) - moves up to max 50% (0.5), (Nota Bene: IN THIS SPECIFIC TEST VIDEO ABOVE - not with your setting in general) thus the max "weight" of the wheel is cut to half and therfore max weight doesn't use the full 100% corridor (dynamic range). So my "definition"of less dynamic was focused on the snail line (therefore weight of the wheel.). Since i'm convinced that the spikes give you road feel and fidelity (and of course some steering relevant data as well) but the "slower" "snail-line" reperesenting the actual steering forces are imo much more relevant for fast driving line, my appraoch is that you lower the dynamic of the "more relevant" FFB info, if you lower RAC. So just a matter of what do i refer to with my "dynamic range" statement: All forces with the spikes, or the main forces (snail line). I refered to the latter.
In other words, with e.g. RAC at 0.9 you have a maximum torque at cour CSWv2 of (i guess) approx. 6-7 Nm. With RAC 0.5 let's say 3-4 Nm. And 0-4 scales "less dynamic" than from 0-7. As always, only believe the numbers that you forged by yourself... :D And talking about dynamics is always about talking about relativity as well. Insofar a lot of headroom to say the same but differently...
RAG: Difficult! Two assumptions:
a.) I think the RAG value just sets a multiplier within the first degree equation, leading to steeper or less steep (first degree) derivated i/0 values curves. That is what creates the "fidelity" See my sketch that i posted some weeks ago... Steeper also means higher absolute values, that go far over the visible value corridor of 0.0 - 1.0 and also far into the "invisible" corridor of imo 0.0 - 20.0. But you can't detect that, because you can't see it visually. And everything happens ultra quickly. (I tried to film with my 270 fps iPhone and analyse it in superslomo, but then i found it simply too nerdy... :kiwi-fruit: You only feel it by more or less "fidelity" or as i call it "granularity" that can go even up into the feeling of noise/chatter... However the point is, that RAC cuts those spikes (caused by RAG) within its operation corridor of 0.00 - 2.00 to where you set it. Doing so you get a derived RAG signal that is not only different to the original I/O value, but it's also pretty much garbled by RAC's limiting effect. So hard to read in its origin effect... However, higher RAG means more "nervousness" and more intense road-feel, less RAG means less road feel. But due to the way RAG works by its math nature it doesn't influence much the weight of the wheel. That is done by RAC and (!) RAB.
b.) It's also possible that RAG does its work mathematically totally differently but with a very similar effect. It's possible that instead of using a multiplicator (that defines steepness and height of the slopes) RAG sets the so called "attack-time". Attack time means a time frame (window) within milliseconds that tells the system if it shall react to trigger the first degree equation function or not. So, if the change of torque (of the origin I/O curve - function) doesn't reach a certain delta (difference) within a given timeframe (by RAG) then the RAG/RAB/RAC module as whole operator doesn't get to work... Everthing happening in milliseconds. What sounds a bit elaborate here is a quite common tool in signal processing... and of course especially in audio signal chains.
Though, i know for sure whichever method is used (there are some more i suppose ;-) there is almost no chance to figure it out which road the devs took.
Haiden, why don't you just raise TF a little instead of all Master and SoP scales? The effects should be the same, you only have to change the scales on some cars that may still be a little off.
Because I don't need the same increase on all cars, some I don't need to change at all. If I increase TF, it will apply to all cars equally. TF is like a wide stroke paint brush, not good for fine detail. The in-car scales are for fine tuning. If I was increasing each in-car master the same, then raising TF would be an easier solution. But some cars only need 2 increments, others, I'm raising as much as 10--fine tuning. I also don't think the Global TF scale is a one-to-match for the in-car Masters, meaning... one click of TF could be equal to more than 1 click on the Master Scale (broad stroke vs fine tuning). Of course, I have no proof of that, but it's actually the lack of proof either way that makes me prefer to error on the side of caution. :) But the main reason is the first thing I mentioned. The need is car specific, not global.
GrimeyDog
24-02-2016, 12:37
You're right the dynamic didn't change the way you look at it (and define it) by setting RAC to 50%: The spikes still go up to 100 (mainly caused by Fz) . But your "snail" line - mainly caused by SoP Diff, a bit by Fz and and a bit lesser Fy (with your usual settings) - moves up to max 50% (0.5), thus the max "weight" of the wheel is cut to half and therfore max weight doesn't use the full 100% corridor (dynamic range). So my "definition"of less dynamic was focused on the snail line (therefore weight of the wheel.). Since i'm convinced that the spikes give you road feel and fidelity (and of course some steering relevant data as well) but the "slower" "snail-line" reperesenting the actual steering forces are imo much more relevant for fast driving line, my appraoch is that you lower the dynamic of the "more relevant" FFB info, if you lower RAC. So just a matter of what do i refer to with my "dynamic range" statement: All forces with the spikes, or the main forces (snail line). I refered to thlatter.
In other words, with e.g. RAC at 0.9 you have a maximum torque at cour CSWv2 of (i guess) approx. 6-7 Nm. With RAC 0.5 let's say 3-4 Nm. And 0-4 scales "less dynamic" than from 0-7. As always, only believe the numbers that you forged by yourself... :D And talking about dynamics is always about talking about relativity as well. Insofar a lot of headroom to say the same but differently...
Exactly!!! Now Remember Lowering RAC will reduce the Harshness of the FFB "Effects" but this allows you to use Higher GM FFB to Replace wheel weight without signifigantly increasing the Harsh FFB effects that can be introduced by High RAC settings thus providing a Calmer/Tamer Wheel with Full Dynamic Range:yes:
The Max that i would Reduce RAC is 84.
Test these RAC 84, 88, 92 and post your findings for Me... im very interested to know your thoughts.
tennenbaum
24-02-2016, 13:27
Exactly!!! Now Remember Lowering RAC will reduce the Harshness of the FFB "Effects" but this allows you to use Higher GM FFB to Replace wheel weight without signifigantly increasing the Harsh FFB effects that can be introduced by High RAC settings thus providing a Calmer/Tamer Wheel with Full Dynamic Range:yes:
The Max that i would Reduce RAC is 84.
Test these RAC 84, 88, 92 and post your findings for Me... im very interested to know your thoughts.
yep, yep! and the fine tune is done by RAB. Remember with RAB you define which of both "curves" (origin curve and derived curved resulting RAG and RAC) gets more weight in the mix, or better said, how they complement each other.
GrimeyDog
24-02-2016, 14:30
yep, yep! and the fine tune is done by RAB. Remember with RAB you define which of both "curves" (origin curve and derived curved resulting RAG and RAC) gets more weight in the mix, or better said, how they complement each other.
When i was testing the Lower RAC settings i kept RAB the Same... Even with the Lower RAC settings RAB "12" feels very Natural... I did Not want to Lower it and Reduce the FFB caused by the Bleed off, Neither did i want to Raise it and Create Stronger forces by adding more Bleed off.
RAB "12" is a very Good Happy Medium even with TF & RAG @ 98 or 100 with any of the Lower RAC settings 84, 88, 92 it Bleeds off just the right amount to keep the Tweek feeling Natural and Balanced.
Even with the Lower RAC settings i can get 1:06.xxx on Watkins short... The only adjustment is for Me to settle into the Lower FFB Forces and adjust Arm My strength aplied at wheel to prevent over seering...Ive been using the stronger FFB sooo long im settled with it and its just Muscle Memory Reflex now.
gruzzlebeard
24-02-2016, 16:43
Exactly!!! Now Remember Lowering RAC will reduce the Harshness of the FFB "Effects" but this allows you to use Higher GM FFB to Replace wheel weight without signifigantly increasing the Harsh FFB effects that can be introduced by High RAC settings thus providing a Calmer/Tamer Wheel with Full Dynamic Range:yes:
The Max that i would Reduce RAC is 84.
Test these RAC 84, 88, 92 and post your findings for Me... im very interested to know your thoughts.
Grimey do you mean with GM FFB the in-game global FFB or the in-wheel CSW V2 FF?
GrimeyDog
24-02-2016, 16:51
Grimey do you mean with GM FFB the in-game global FFB or the in-wheel CSW V2 FF?
GM FFB = In Game Master FFB.
I get lazy and dont want to type Game Master FFB all the time... LOL... How you been you still Racing??? Havent seen you post in a bit.
gruzzlebeard
24-02-2016, 17:02
Thanks I need to learn the new slang :p. I got soo frustrated and fed up with the game after patch 6 has been introduced (and I've had hell of work). Now I'm lurking around looking what's new. Maybe I'll give pcars a try again. Patch 9 is really smooth. Maybe I find the right setting quick and then focus more on racing and TT.
tennenbaum
24-02-2016, 20:07
When i was testing the Lower RAC settings i kept RAB the Same... Even with the Lower RAC settings RAB "12" feels very Natural... I did Not want to Lower it and Reduce the FFB caused by the Bleed off, Neither did i want to Raise it and Create Stronger forces by adding more Bleed off.
RAB "12" is a very Good Happy Medium even with TF & RAG @ 98 or 100 with any of the Lower RAC settings 84, 88, 92 it Bleeds off just the right amount to keep the Tweek feeling Natural and Balanced.
Even with the Lower RAC settings i can get 1:06.xxx on Watkins short... The only adjustment is for Me to settle into the Lower FFB Forces and adjust Arm My strength aplied at wheel to prevent over seering...Ive been using the stronger FFB sooo long im settled with it and its just Muscle Memory Reflex now.
i agree. I can only speak for myself, when i say for me it's easier with a heavier wheel to find the sweet spot especially at the beginning of turning in - similar to what you say. That's why your setting fits my needs quite well. To my surprise i had to admit to myself that sometimes to much FFB info (differentiation) during a turn feels entertaining and immersive but also sometimes distracting to me. But there are limits with settings that approach the idea of "heavier" tones: I recently tested KrusControl's setting, and i didn't find it optimal for myself. (i hope i find a little bit time to reflect on on his setting. He is very fast. So i was very curious about what you called a "radical" FFB approach...
GrimeyDog
24-02-2016, 21:01
i agree. I can only speak for myself, when i say for me it's easier with a heavier wheel to find the sweet spot especially at the beginning of turning in - similar to what you say. That's why your setting fits my needs quite well. To my surprise i had to admit to myself that sometimes to much FFB info (differentiation) during a turn feels entertaining and immersive but also sometimes distracting to me. But there are limits with settings that approach the idea of "heavier" tones: I recently tested KrusControl's setting, and i didn't find it optimal for myself. (i hope i find a little bit time to reflect on on his setting. He is very fast. So i was very curious about what you called a "radical" FFB approach...
I agree 100%... i was just giving a few lighter FFB options for those that prefer lighter FFB Effects... I need my wheel FFB Effects stronger with some fight to them... keeps me from over steering, well informed about what the track Surface is like, Grip level and lets me know how hard i can push.
Have No Fear I'm Not going to Change the base formula for my Tweek... and if i do it will be because of a major break through that just makes it better:D
I'm very happy with the FFB feel...I've been checking, double checking, triple checking but there is no better feel that i have found that fits my FFB taste:cool:
Oddly enough I did a full reset last night because I haven't done one in 2 patches and wanted to test how sensitivity acted with default settings to make sure there was no interference from my settings. Guess what? Since this patch the defaults aren't that different from what I guess most of us are running. Not as lively and a little flatter but not nearly as off as they were in the beginning. Really not horrible. Also did anyone catch the response from thrustmaster in the tx forum about pcars having the strongest ffb of all the car games and where they would like the ffb master set? Obviously we know now there are more than one way to lower forces just an interesting response.
Krus Control
24-02-2016, 21:20
I just barely got Open Broadcast Software working in game. I managed to capture a very choppy section of gameplay with telemetry on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZQA-GEI9sc&feature=youtu.be
Morpwr are you still using the same global settings as on page 163? Just wondering if you have found better?
Sorry missed this. So far yes. But I may have a couple small tweaks nothing huge and probably more personal preference.
GrimeyDog
24-02-2016, 21:47
Oddly enough I did a full reset last night because I haven't done one in 2 patches and wanted to test how sensitivity acted with default settings to make sure there was no interference from my settings. Guess what? Since this patch the defaults aren't that different from what I guess most of us are running. Not as lively and a little flatter but not nearly as off as they were in the beginning. Really not horrible. Also did anyone catch the response from thrustmaster in the tx forum about pcars having the strongest ffb of all the car games and where they would like the ffb master set? Obviously we know now there are more than one way to lower forces just an interesting response.
Can you post the link to this Post... i would like to read it... Thnx.
Even with the v2 and XB1 i have to set the XB1 GM FFB to 25, PS4 i use 35 GM FFB the XB1 FFB is very Strong!!!
GrimeyDog
24-02-2016, 21:52
I just barely got Open Broadcast Software working in game. I managed to capture a very choppy section of gameplay with telemetry on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZQA-GEI9sc&feature=youtu.be
What platform are you playing on??? if its PS4 just use share play... that's what i do.
I can never get my videos to post like that from you tube when i post them its always just a link to the video on you tube.....what am i doing wrong???
Krus Control
24-02-2016, 21:57
I'm on PC. I used to be able to record in game but now it doesn't work for some reason. I can record replays though and they're watchable.
GrimeyDog
24-02-2016, 22:04
If you can post the telemetry from a Replay... its the same thing... just set AI to slow and do a 2 car 1 lap race with the Telemetry up.
Krus Control
24-02-2016, 22:06
If you can post the telemetry from a Replay... its the same thing... just set AI to slow and do a 2 car 1 lap race with the Telemetry up.
I'll give it a go.
Krus Control
24-02-2016, 22:15
I don't have the option to show telemetry in replays. That video I posted is the best you'll get from me.
I don't have the option to show telemetry in replays. That video I posted is the best you'll get from me.
You can't show telemetry in replay. It's one of the biggest tuning problems with PCars. Forces you to watch telemetry while driving. If you're on console you can save the video of the actual drive, though. Still a pain for tuning.
GrimeyDog
24-02-2016, 22:36
Its getting complicated:p Look at the qualifying times!!! i think its time to start Tuning the cars:yes:
dawgpaws11
25-02-2016, 01:04
Morpowr didn't see the thrust master post. Do you have a link?
Morpowr didn't see the thrust master post. Do you have a link?
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?32212-XB1-Thrustmaster-TX-Discussion&p=1239843&viewfull=1#post1239843
inthebagbud
25-02-2016, 08:18
Well it's that time of month again where I dip my toe in the thread, so this month's questions are
What setting most affects the ffb line to make it snake more , mine has become flatter and struggling to find that combination to get it back
Also what settings most helps you feel bounce in a car , I can feel road feel through the tyres both in the straight and cornering but was recently driving fg1000 round Donington and there is a section where the car is bouncing up and down which I can see visually but not through the wheel
I just barely got Open Broadcast Software working in game. I managed to capture a very choppy section of gameplay with telemetry on.
God, what the hell are you doing to that car! No way i can do that on my wheel. ;D
Well it's that time of month again where I dip my toe in the thread, so this month's questions are
What setting most affects the ffb line to make it snake more , mine has become flatter and struggling to find that combination to get it back
Also what settings most helps you feel bounce in a car , I can feel road feel through the tyres both in the straight and cornering but was recently driving fg1000 round Donington and there is a section where the car is bouncing up and down which I can see visually but not through the wheel
By snaking do you mean how much the line goes up and down or do you mean the spikes? I m assuming the main body of the line (rigidity of the wheel). You need to raise Steering Gain. The up and down forces would be Fz and Mz +Sop,
inthebagbud
25-02-2016, 10:37
By snaking do you mean how much the line goes up and down or do you mean the spikes? I m assuming the main body of the line (rigidity of the wheel). You need to raise Steering Gain. The up and down forces would be Fz and Mz +Sop,
yes sorry talking about the up and down gentle curve not the spikes
GrimeyDog
25-02-2016, 11:08
Well it's that time of month again where I dip my toe in the thread, so this month's questions are
What setting most affects the ffb line to make it snake more , mine has become flatter and struggling to find that combination to get it back
Also what settings most helps you feel bounce in a car , I can feel road feel through the tyres both in the straight and cornering but was recently driving fg1000 round Donington and there is a section where the car is bouncing up and down which I can see visually but not through the wheel
Front bump feel "Fz" Rear Bump Feel "SoP Diff"
These 2 settings Bump, Curb feel and makes FFB Graph more active.
GrimeyDog
25-02-2016, 11:13
Me and Flight Test Had a few Good Races Lest Night in the touring Class BMW Last Night... Great fun!!! It would be Good for more of you to join in.... its Not about winning or Losing...lets all just have a few hours of fun putting these tweeks to use.
tennenbaum
25-02-2016, 11:56
I just barely got Open Broadcast Software working in game. I managed to capture a very choppy section of gameplay with telemetry on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZQA-GEI9sc&feature=youtu.be
Konnos said it before: What the heck are you doing with the car/wheel? :D Drifting without the pCars typical infamous tank slapper? And you're turning the wheel this quickly with the settings in your OP, so with such a heavy wheel? The telemetry shows very low RAC. I assume you did the run in the video when your RAC was still set to 0.55 or 0.45?
BTW:
The screenshots of your settings in your opening post show significantly different values than what you write in the beginning of your post. (Fxyzm 100/100/100/18 or 100/100/100/100 ?) Difficult to judge your settings, then.
However it seems to me that you raised RAC (now 0.75) very recently? When i tested your setting last weekend due to lower RAC (0.55 or 0.45?) you had quite low dynamic range and pretty saturated heavy wheel in general with almost now differentiation. No problem if you're used to. And you are obviously very used to your setting ;-). Though indeed a pretty radical setting that may not be ideal for everybody. And your strong Scoop Reduction kind of contradict your strong compression with RAC.
When i tested your setting with Body Scale 0.01 (and Body long scale 2.00 and Body Stiffness 200.0 and Body Damping 0.01) it didn't have an effect with body scale set to 0.01, because this value turns the entire module off. With body scale 0.02 same thing not a notable effect. When you set Body Scale higher i think the entire module is still broken. Some people around here in the forum think the same.
Setting the TF to 170 mustn't be wrong when you work with relatively low spindle master scale (26) and no SoP Scale, but then allow RAC to catch and compress the tire forces at a higher level.
You're on a PC and your wheel FFB is set at 95% and your in game FFB master is set to 100, while you come out from the stage steering gain (telemetry hud) with something around 75- 85 % (depending in how you set RAG and SG by now) didn't you fry your wheel since quite a while, or at least saves you going to the gym... ;-)
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?32212-XB1-Thrustmaster-TX-Discussion&p=1239843&viewfull=1#post1239843
Thanks haiden
Me and Flight Test Had a few Good Races Lest Night in the touring Class BMW Last Night... Great fun!!! It would be Good for more of you to join in.... its Not about winning or Losing...lets all just have a few hours of fun putting these tweeks to use.
Thanks for the invite grimey. I'm still trying to get used to the new brake pedal and steering sensitivity it wouldn't have been pretty .lol I switched to a load cell so its taking me a little getting used to. I'm sure it will come back pretty quick though I had one on my old g27 pedals.
Fight-Test
25-02-2016, 12:33
Thanks for the invite grimey. I'm still trying to get used to the new brake pedal and steering sensitivity it wouldn't have been pretty .lol I switched to a load cell so its taking me a little getting used to. I'm sure it will come back pretty quick though I had one on my old g27 pedals.
How u liking the load cell? Single biggest upgrade I made in regard to improving times but took a bit to get used to. So little movement. It does get better aftwr a week or so. The load cell has a little more play and it's not so stiff.
Krus Control
25-02-2016, 12:50
Konnos said it before: What the heck are you doing with the car/wheel? :D Drifting without the pCars typical infamous tank slapper? And you're turning the wheel this quickly with the settings in your OP, so with such a heavy wheel? The telemetry shows very low RAC. I assume you did the run in the video when your RAC was still set to 0.55 or 0.45?
BTW:
The screenshots of your settings in your opening post show significantly different values than what you write in the beginning of your post. (Fxyzm 100/100/100/18 or 100/100/100/100 ?) Difficult to judge your settings, then.
However it seems to me that you raised RAC (now 0.75) very recently? When i tested your setting last weekend due to lower RAC (0.55 or 0.45?) you had quite low dynamic range and pretty saturated heavy wheel in general with almost now differentiation. No problem if you're used to. And you are obviously very used to your setting ;-). Though indeed a pretty radical setting that may not be ideal for everybody. And your strong Scoop Reduction kind of contradict your strong compression with RAC.
When i tested your setting with Body Scale 0.01 (and Body long scale 2.00 and Body Stiffness 200.0 and Body Damping 0.01) it didn't have an effect with body scale set to 0.01, because this value turns the entire module off. With body scale 0.02 same thing not a notable effect. When you set Body Scale higher i think the entire module is still broken. Some people around here in the forum think the same.
Setting the TF to 170 mustn't be wrong when you work with relatively low spindle master scale (26) and no SoP Scale, but then allow RAC to catch and compress the tire forces at a higher level.
You're on a PC and your wheel FFB is set at 95% and your in game FFB master is set to 100, while you come out from the stage steering gain (telemetry hud) with something around 75- 85 % (depending in how you set RAG and SG by now) didn't you fry your wheel since quite a while, or at least saves you going to the gym... ;-)
This is why I'm sharing my settings guys. You can drive better with them without having the FFB throw you out of a drift in any car. Hell, I can drift the F1 cars with these settings. I'm currently running the 18 Mz, .75 RAC configuration that I have outlined in my post. I found a sweet spot that isn't possible with default setups and this is where I'm running. I left the screenshots of only the settings that work with the per car defaults. I don't have much to say about my settings except that they are the perfect balance on my wheel. Though the gain numbers are high, because of my relative adjust settings the forces are never too strong at the wheel. It's a workout in some cars but won't fry the wheel. Using defaults or close to default settings will put your wheel at a much more significant risk. My settings just balance gain properly and use dynamic range properly.
Krus Control
25-02-2016, 13:09
Also The way you're describing when you used my .65 RAC settings I think you're getting a different result than I am. There is only a small difference between what you tried and what is in the video here. It sounds to me like these work differently on the PS4/T300. I know the numbers on the PS4 in the menus are different. But it could be that the same numbers produce different results. If this is the case then I can't help you. I'm able to turn settings down in the Thrustmaster panel in Windows. Do you have this ability on PS4? This is something I don't know anything about.
tennenbaum
25-02-2016, 13:10
This is why I'm sharing my settings guys. You can drive better with them without having the FFB throw you out of a drift in any car. Hell, I can drift the F1 cars with these settings. I'm currently running the 18 Mz, .75 RAC configuration that I have outlined in my post. I found a sweet spot that isn't possible with default setups and this is where I'm running. I left the screenshots of only the settings that work with the per car defaults. I don't have much to say about my settings except that they are the perfect balance on my wheel. Though the gain numbers are high, because of my relative adjust settings the forces are never too strong at the wheel. It's a workout in some cars but won't fry the wheel. Using defaults or close to default settings will put your wheel at a much more significant risk. My settings just balance gain properly and use dynamic range properly.
You definitely should produce some "how to drift woth pCars" videos and put them on youtube!
Krus Control
25-02-2016, 13:15
Also Body scale does have an affect, but it's a subtle one. I can notice a difference though. To me the feel seems more direct and less numb with body longitudinal scale at 2.00 and body stiffness at 200.00. You can more directly feel the beginnings and ends of slides.
Krus Control
25-02-2016, 13:16
You definitely should produce some "how to drift woth pCars" videos and put them on youtube!
lol You saw the difficulty I have with recording video on my system.
tennenbaum
25-02-2016, 13:37
lol You saw the difficulty I have with recording video on my system.
do it anyway :D
How u liking the load cell? Single biggest upgrade I made in regard to improving times but took a bit to get used to. So little movement. It does get better aftwr a week or so. The load cell has a little more play and it's not so stiff.
I really like it but like you said takes some time to adjust after not using one for so long.
Me and Flight Test Had a few Good Races Lest Night in the touring Class BMW Last Night... Great fun!!! It would be Good for more of you to join in.... its Not about winning or Losing...lets all just have a few hours of fun putting these tweeks to use.
I'll race you anytime GDog you know that , problem is we only seem to get a race together on Saturday afternoon my time . Might see you this weekend .
Race on .
GrimeyDog
25-02-2016, 14:04
This is why I'm sharing my settings guys. You can drive better with them without having the FFB throw you out of a drift in any car. Hell, I can drift the F1 cars with these settings. I'm currently running the 18 Mz, .75 RAC configuration that I have outlined in my post. I found a sweet spot that isn't possible with default setups and this is where I'm running. I left the screenshots of only the settings that work with the per car defaults. I don't have much to say about my settings except that they are the perfect balance on my wheel. Though the gain numbers are high, because of my relative adjust settings the forces are never too strong at the wheel. It's a workout in some cars but won't fry the wheel. Using defaults or close to default settings will put your wheel at a much more significant risk. My settings just balance gain properly and use dynamic range properly.
Ok here is the thing... Racing FFB is Different from a Drifting FFB what is your FFB setting For??? Racing or Drifting??? That Needs to be Made Clear that way Racers and Drifters can pick whats going to work best for what they want to do.
Fight-Test
25-02-2016, 14:04
I really like it but like you said takes some time to adjust after not using one for so long.
I find I have to lower the brake pressure on most cars to around 90 to start and end up between 85 and 95. GT3's Im always a 100 but I use real assists and they have abs so makes it easier. You have to roll off the brake as you slow and get deeper into the corner with no abs to keep from lockup and its hard when the pedal only moves half a inch. Im sure you know this already though, just gotta get back in the groove.
GrimeyDog
25-02-2016, 14:17
I'll race you anytime GDog you know that , problem is we only seem to get a race together on Saturday afternoon my time . Might see you this weekend .
Race on .
Yes!!! I and BigDad have had some Good Races also!!! He is fast too.
Im in New York... im usually on from 3:00pm to 8:30pm lets sync time zones and we can set up some Good Races... Who cars who's first or last its all about fun... the only way to get faster is to Race with those who make you push Harder!!!!
Had Great fun with Flight Test Last Night!!!! Both Driving a unfamiliar car the Touring BMW i forget which 1...Spin outs, Wall Slaps with Damage On!!! Un invited Guest who we Fried the First 2 Races!!! Laughing and Joking about it... Guest Left and Must have made adjustments and Came Back Strong put us under Pressure!!! Both added him to friends list!!! Good clean Racer Too.
Lest organize a few events.
I'm able to turn settings down in the Thrustmaster panel in Windows. Do you have this ability on PS4? This is something I don't know anything about.
We don't, and this has been one of the main issues when attempting to translate settings from PC to consoles. On consoles, we have the FFB Master control at the end of the chain, after telemetry, but we don't have a secondary output control in the form of a driver control panel. So, for example, if you were running your FFB master at 100, and then your Strength of All Forces Master in the TM control panel at 75, it would roughly equate to us running our FFB Master at 75. In the case of Thrustmaster and Logitech wheels, the in-game FFB master is ultimately playing the role of the final, and only, master output to the wheel. Several authoritative PC guys have been adamant that the in-game FFB master must be set at 100 even on consoles, but I suspect that they have been unaware of this essential difference. To get close to their settings, we would therefore need to know the values for both their in-game master and Control Panel final output, in order to calculate where we would set our in-game FFB master.
GrimeyDog
25-02-2016, 14:27
9.0 is really Good!!! ive driven just about every car and yes My FFB works well with All of the Cars with the Exception of FA...the other Formula cars are ok... its only the FA cars that Need a Special Tweek but i will work on that within the Cars Arm angle and suspension to get the FA cars to work with the Tweek...for Now i just Drive FA cars stock In car FFB...that works pretty well... i got a really good time with stock FFB on Watkins short using stock FFB its Not bad in those cars.
I'm in Brisbane and only get on once or twice a week night and then Saturday afternoon 12 -5 about . Makes it hard .
I use Fanatec and it doesn't seem to matter what my GM FFB is at 20 or 100 all feels the same . I've only just noticed this ? Anyone else notice this ?
Krus Control
25-02-2016, 14:38
Ok here is the thing... Racing FFB is Different from a Drifting FFB what is your FFB setting For??? Racing or Drifting??? That Needs to be Made Clear that way Racers and Drifters can pick whats going to work best for what they want to do.
My FFB is good for racing and drifting and everything in between. There is no need to set it up differently. Good FFB is good FFB.
Krus Control
25-02-2016, 14:42
I use Fanatec and it doesn't seem to matter what my GM FFB is at 20 or 100 all feels the same . I've only just noticed this ? Anyone else notice this ?
You should set your forces too low and then creep up and use the lowest possible setting that gives you the proper weight. This will avoid clipping and other problems as much as possible. It could be that you are clipping or it could be a bunch of things or maybe not even a problem.
Fight-Test
25-02-2016, 14:44
Im home most of day right now if anyone wants to run any during the weekdays. Oil prices are making me have some vacation time. I race alot of competitive GT3 league stuff but have fallen in love with the BMW 320 TC. No assists, one of the best sounding cars on Pcars and crazy close racing. Me and Grimey had a lot of fun running it last night. Car makes you feel confident and then you start to push and a death spin ensues, haha. We need alot of practice in it.
Krus Control
25-02-2016, 14:45
We don't, and this has been one of the main issues when attempting to translate settings from PC to consoles. On consoles, we have the FFB Master control at the end of the chain, after telemetry, but we don't have a secondary output control in the form of a driver control panel. So, for example, if you were running your FFB master at 100, and then your Strength of All Forces Master in the TM control panel at 75, it would roughly equate to us running our FFB Master at 75. In the case of Thrustmaster and Logitech wheels, the in-game FFB master is ultimately playing the role of the final, and only, master output to the wheel. Several authoritative PC guys have been adamant that the in-game FFB master must be set at 100 even on consoles, but I suspect that they have been unaware of this essential difference. To get close to their settings, we would therefore need to know the values for both their in-game master and Control Panel final output, in order to calculate where we would set our in-game FFB master.
That's complicated. I don't think my settings will work exactly as they are then on PS4. Will take some maybe serious tweaking it sounds like.
Me and Flight Test Had a few Good Races Lest Night in the touring Class BMW Last Night... Great fun!!! It would be Good for more of you to join in.... its Not about winning or Losing...lets all just have a few hours of fun putting these tweeks to use.
I'm always up for racing, but I'm not really into the GT, Road, or Touring classes right now. Open wheel and LMP are my preference. I'm usually on in the evenings, but have more time on Tues, Thurs, and Fri.
I find I have to lower the brake pressure on most cars to around 90 to start and end up between 85 and 95. GT3's Im always a 100 but I use real assists and they have abs so makes it easier. You have to roll off the brake as you slow and get deeper into the corner with no abs to keep from lockup and its hard when the pedal only moves half a inch. Im sure you know this already though, just gotta get back in the groove.
Have you tried lowering the brake sensitivity in the global config? I've got mine set to 35 (which might actually be the new default), but I also lowered the sensitivity at the wheel level from 50 to 40. If I didn't have the @wheel settings, I'm pretty sure I would have lowered the global sensitivity. Not sure which pedals you're using, though. You can set stiffness with the Clubsport V3s. And, depending on how you set it, you can still get quite a bit of throw in the pedal, even with the cell.
GrimeyDog
25-02-2016, 16:07
I use 50% Brake saturation in controler settings, What ever the Car Brake PSI/ Balance is stock and My BrF/ on wheel Brake sensitivity at 100!!! i use No Assist i just learned to be Light on the Gas and Brakes... I like instant Gas/Brake Response, it makes Throttle Steering and Trail Braking easyer... it takes time but once you get your foot dialed in it becomes a matter of Muscle Memory to apply just the right amount of throttle and Brake pressure.
Fight-Test
25-02-2016, 16:14
I'm always up for racing, but I'm not really into the GT, Road, or Touring classes right now. Open wheel and LMP are my preference. I'm usually on in the evenings, but have more time on Tues, Thurs, and Fri.
Have you tried lowering the brake sensitivity in the global config? I've got mine set to 35 (which might actually be the new default), but I also lowered the sensitivity at the wheel level from 50 to 40. If I didn't have the @wheel settings, I'm pretty sure I would have lowered the global sensitivity. Not sure which pedals you're using, though. You can set stiffness with the Clubsport V3s. And, depending on how you set it, you can still get quite a bit of throw in the pedal, even with the cell.
haven't tried lowering it, but i think your right its pretty low by default. I have the ricmotech load cell which has two weights. I use the 80lb I think. the heaviest. It feels good, just need to change pressures depending on car. I mostly drive GT3 but when I switch to a non abs car its a little touchy at 100. I will leave at 100 and try sensitivity next time.
Fight-Test
25-02-2016, 16:18
The palmer jaguar and formula rookie a both joys to drive and make for great pack racing. We could do a little multiclass. Palmer or Caterham and the BMW 320 TC. Get a good group of guys in a slower car to start and learn how to race, not just go fast and then get faster machines each season. Best way to do it in real life too.
EDIT: sorry for double post
GrimeyDog
25-02-2016, 16:33
The palmer jaguar and formula rookie a both joys to drive and make for great pack racing. We could do a little multiclass. Palmer or Caterham and the BMW 320 TC. Get a good group of guys in a slower car to start and learn how to race, not just go fast and then get faster machines each season. Best way to do it in real life too.
EDIT: sorry for double post
Exactly!!! you have to race smarter Not Faster...weave left, Dip right catch the draft and sling shot by coming out a corner.
When im trailing i always just pace to see where the other prson is slower... i fake attempt to pass just to see how or if they will try to block Me from passing...when they Block that makes it easy to pass most of the time because they cant be focusing on the fast racing line while trying to block...Look for the weak spot set em up catch the Draft Gas and Go!!! Vrooom Vrooom!!!
Smart Racers dont Block they will hold their line in a Drag Race down the straight to keep you off the fast line which will make you slow out of the next corner so even if you do get by they can draft and sling shot also.
there Need to be penalties for unnescesary Blocking.
I use 50% Brake saturation in controler settings, What ever the Car Brake PSI/ Balance is stock and My BrF/ on wheel Brake sensitivity at 100!!! i use No Assist i just learned to be Light on the Gas and Brakes... I like instant Gas/Brake Response, it makes Throttle Steering and Trail Braking easyer... it takes time but once you get your foot dialed in it becomes a matter of Muscle Memory to apply just the right amount of throttle and Brake pressure.
I think muscle memory is required with load cells regardless of your sensitivity settings. My stiffness is too high to use 100 sensitivity, at least for me. The damper is at max and the cylinder is at 5. If I set the sensitivity too high, the brake registers even when my foot isn't on the pedal.
Exactly!!! you have to race smarter Not Faster...weave left, Dip right catch the draft and sling shot by coming out a corner.
When im trailing i always just pace to see where the other prson is slower... i fake attempt to pass just to see how or if they will try to block Me from passing...when they Block that makes it easy to pass most of the time because they cant be focusing on the fast racing line while trying to block...Look for the weak spot set em up catch the Draft Gas and Go!!! Vrooom Vrooom!!!
Smart Racers dont Block they will hold their line in a Drag Race down the straight to keep you off the fast line which will make you slow out of the next corner so even if you do get by they can draft and sling shot also.
there Need to be penalties for unnescesary Blocking.
This is my biggest problem with online racing (Not you. You're doing it right :) ). Too many drivers don't know how to trail and probe. They will ride your tail, but drive under the assumption that you will use the same braking points that they use, or that your driving style is the same, or car setup is the same. Then, as soon as you brake earlier, or harder, or just differently from what they were expecting, they're run right up your arse and take you out of the race. When you trail, you have to allow the leading car a little space going into the corners, until you know what you're dealing with. Backing off a little won't hurt you, because you'll be going into the corner a little slower, which will allow you to get back on the throttle sooner, power out, and be right back on his arse at exit. I wish more people would learn/understand that.
I agree on the blocking, too. I wish there was a way to penalize for that. The constant swerving is annoying. And I hate to say it, but pad users annoy me, too. It's not their fault, but their cars are so twitchy, I'm always hesitant to try overtaking them in corners and usually just end up trailing them until I can slip by on a straight. With wheel users, you can go wheel-to-wheel through the corners no problem.
Edit: Another thing about trailing and setting up an overtake. You never know what shape the car in front is in. Their tires might be worn, or maybe they have aero damage and don't have the downforce to brake late and hard. You have to probe, before you close in and start riding them hard. And of course, this is all far more important in open wheel racing than other classes, because the cars are just too fragile to take chances.
Fight-Test
25-02-2016, 17:08
haiden, couldn't say it better myself. most guys dont get it. They will take you two wide in every corner even if it slows both of you down. They think just because they catch you they must be faster and immediately try to pass not matter the situation. Then they make a mess of the race before the first lap is over for everyone else and quit. Its like they are trying but at the same time have no idea. This is why we race with friends. i will ride behind a guy for lap after lap till he makes a mistake if I don't have a true chance to pass. Just because the draft lets me stay on him or even get up along side doesn't mean im faster. more respect from drivers is needed.
come race with me anytime. Even its just three or four of us it will be fun. Talk racing and help each other out. I have a good list of clean drivers also. you guys are always welcome.
haiden, couldn't say it better myself. most guys dont get it. They will take you two wide in every corner even if it slows both of you down. They think just because they catch you they must be faster and immediately try to pass not matter the situation. Then they make a mess of the race before the first lap is over for everyone else and quit. Its like they are trying but at the same time have no idea. This is why we race with friends. i will ride behind a guy for lap after lap till he makes a mistake if I don't have a true chance to pass. Just because the draft lets me stay on him or even get up along side doesn't mean im faster. more respect from drivers is needed.
come race with me anytime. Even its just three or four of us it will be fun. Talk racing and help each other out. I have a good list of clean drivers also. you guys are always welcome.
Exactly! And sometimes, that pressure from behind will just force an error and you don't even have to worry about the overtake. :)
I will. I remember I used to get your invites when I first switched to PS4, but I didn't have PS+ a the time (had the trial, but wasn't really online yet), so I could never join. By the time I got it (like two months later), I think you had gotten tired of trying to get me to join...LOL.
tennenbaum
25-02-2016, 23:05
My FFB is good for racing and drifting and everything in between. There is no need to set it up differently. Good FFB is good FFB.
with due all respect, that's a broad statement. for the benefit of the doubt, let us give room to the idea that your FFB setting is rather exotic than just "good", in terms of taking into account the amount of proven knowledge about FFB that was destillated yet by others. Being fast is great and reason to be acknowledged, but believing that it is automatically the proof for a good 'universal' FFB setting is understandable and liked due to your undoubted selfconfidence, but might not be fully in accordance with what was agreed on widely as "best practice". don't get me wrong, your FFB approach is fresh and fun to test, but just by introducing it to a wider crowd doesn't mean its relevance is given without further questioning.
Krus Control
26-02-2016, 00:19
with due all respect, that's a broad statement. for the benefit of the doubt, let us give room to the idea that your FFB setting is rather exotic than just "good", in terms of taking into account the amount of proven knowledge about FFB that was destillated yet by others. Being fast is great and reason to be acknowledged, but believing that it is automatically the proof for a good 'universal' FFB setting is understandable and liked due to your undoubted selfconfidence, but might not be fully in accordance with what was agreed on widely as "best practice". don't get me wrong, your FFB approach is fresh and fun to test, but just by introducing it to a wider crowd doesn't mean its relevance is given without further questioning.
I'm not saying this is the be all end all of settings. But for me this produces realism that is beyond other things I've tried on my TX. I just want to help people use the right settings. When I say good I mean realistic. My goal is to make the FFB feel as close to what you would get in real life. I own an FRS so I have a good real life reference for the feel. Question my settings if you want. They might look wrong or odd but they work right.
GrimeyDog
26-02-2016, 03:16
I'm not saying this is the be all end all of settings. But for me this produces realism that is beyond other things I've tried on my TX. I just want to help people use the right settings. When I say good I mean realistic. My goal is to make the FFB feel as close to what you would get in real life. I own an FRS so I have a good real life reference for the feel. Question my settings if you want. They might look wrong or odd but they work right.
Have you ever driven a Sports car down a Semi bumpy street or a concrete hwy at High Speed??? where you can hear and feel the gaps between the concrete slabs???you can feel that in the wheel especially with low profile tires!!! your FFB Graph is too tame to simulate the Reality of that.. its more heavy than it is lively...This is a Sim its close to the real thing but its not the real thing... there are many RL forces missing barring you have a motion simulator... therefore some of the FFB forces that would be felt in a RL car steering wheel have to be increased beyond reality a tad bit to provide greater immersion to make your arms feel what your body does not.
i use 2x buttkickers i tried to get the feel as close to My 350z at high speed as possible... when im zooming to work at 85mph the steering wheel of my Z is not going crazy but i bet I Nor you wont let it go and expect it to stay straight.
Whats a FRS
Krus Control
26-02-2016, 03:35
Have you ever driven a Sports car down a Semi bumpy street or a concrete hwy at High Speed??? where you can hear and feel the gaps between the concrete slabs???you can feel that in the wheel especially with low profile tires!!! your FFB Graph is too tame to simulate the Reality of that.. its more heavy than it is lively...This is a Sim its close to the real thing but its not the real thing... there are many RL forces missing barring you have a motion simulator... therefore some of the FFB forces that would be felt in a RL car steering wheel have to be increased beyond reality a tad bit to provide greater immersion to make your arms feel what your body does not.
i use 2x buttkickers i tried to get the feel as close to My 350z at high speed as possible... when im zooming to work at 85mph the steering wheel of my Z is not going crazy but i bet I Nor you wont let it go and expect it to stay straight.
Whats a FRS
Everything should be more powerful and better, but this is the best my wheel can do. Maybe with a more powerful wheel it would be a different setup. An FRS is a GT86. There's one in the game.
Jack Spade
26-02-2016, 08:21
CSW v2 alternative global setting - DRI or PWM?
Statements of Andrew Weber, constructor of our system, obtained from a FFB discussion in pCARS 2 forum a few days ago.
Info here:
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?22938-Jack-Spade-FFB-Tweaker-Files&p=1241078&viewfull=1#post1241078
I'll give it a go tonight .
So do i set everything to 0 except GM FFB ? Then increase pwm and decrease pwms till friction less ?
gruzzlebeard
26-02-2016, 09:34
I use Fanatec and it doesn't seem to matter what my GM FFB is at 20 or 100 all feels the same . I've only just noticed this ? Anyone else notice this ?
Yes I noticed this already after I tested patch 8. It seems it's just impacting CSW V2 users but I have not got too much feedback so far.
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1233093&viewfull=1#post1233093
GM FFB has always the same strenght and it doesn't change if you dial in 0 or 100 strength.
GrimeyDog
26-02-2016, 09:54
Everything should be more powerful and better, but this is the best my wheel can do. Maybe with a more powerful wheel it would be a different setup. An FRS is a GT86. There's one in the game.
Aaaaah ....Yes.... thats Right... i forget that we are using Many different wheels with same tweek... tweeks will feel diff on diff wheels...i dont think your FFB feels Bad... i just like FFB a Tad bit more Lively...Many have told Me My FFB is Too Strong/Liveley...its all about FFB preference...the Best FFB is the one that YOU feel the best with... Thats what its really about...Thanks for Sharing and posting it were all after the same thing...Keep posting we will Reach the Final FFB solution... but just like RL the final solution will not be same for every 1... Diversity is the spice of life.
... Diversity is the spice of life.
I ll make sure to tell that to my girlfriend :)
Koza_Nostra
26-02-2016, 10:42
Hello guys. So I've been reading this thread for quite a few weeks, to seek for that sweet spot in FFB. I now feel like I found what I like and feels realistic, as well as fast, especially after the PATCH 9.0, I find not much needs to be done to the Global, as they are already pretty good.
My question is around the debate of FFB > TF or FFB < TF. I've read a numerous threads and posts about it, and some say one way while others believe in the opposite way. I was always running FFB > TF, but since reading this thread few weeks ago I started running FFB < TF. What do you guys think since Patch 9.0?
I started running FFB > TF again, and it feels good, just want to see what you guys think..? The reason I started running FFB > TF again, because recent posts on other threads suggest it's the way to go again since Patch 9.0
Btw, I'm on Xbox1 driving with TX 458.
Cheers :)
GrimeyDog
26-02-2016, 11:42
Hello guys. So I've been reading this thread for quite a few weeks, to seek for that sweet spot in FFB. I now feel like I found what I like and feels realistic, as well as fast, especially after the PATCH 9.0, I find not much needs to be done to the Global, as they are already pretty good.
My question is around the debate of FFB > TF or FFB < TF. I've read a numerous threads and posts about it, and some say one way while others believe in the opposite way. I was always running FFB > TF, but since reading this thread few weeks ago I started running FFB < TF. What do you guys think since Patch 9.0?
I started running FFB > TF again, and it feels good, just want to see what you guys think..? The reason I started running FFB > TF again, because recent posts on other threads suggest it's the way to go again since Patch 9.0
Btw, I'm on Xbox1 driving with TX 458.
Cheers :)
it works Good both ways... it Really depends on which 1 feel best to you. I like Low GM FFB and TF 100... GM FFB just provides the fnal at the wheel Strength... TF = Wheel weight... you have to find the right balance for you.
Koza_Nostra
26-02-2016, 13:15
Yeah I guess so, I will try both this weekend and decide which one I prefer. I do have to say it feels so much better with Patch 9.0, most cars with JS in car settings feels good. I was trying to beat your 1.06xxx at Watkins Glen Short yesterday, done about 12 laps, but the closest I got was 1.07.594. I feel I can find more time in 1st and last corner and maybe one before the last corner as well.
Grimey - could you drop a link to a video of your 1.06.xxx lap, I think I remember seeing one. Wanna see what lines you are taking :P Also which car did you get 1.06? I started of with Ruf, but then found Z4 quicker for my liking.
Wish I had PS4, could give you a race :)
GrimeyDog
26-02-2016, 14:20
https://youtu.be/goizjcnj4oU
The Ruff All Day!!! Its Stock too!!! Thas my Fav car!!!
Im going to tune it and go for the 1:05.xxx!!!
in just waiting for 10.0 to drop just in case the FFB changes again...dont want to keep re tweeking the car.... the car tweeking is going to be harder than FFB tweeking!!!
I use same in car FFB settings with every car... but yet every car still feels and handles differently.
Hello guys. So I've been reading this thread for quite a few weeks, to seek for that sweet spot in FFB. I now feel like I found what I like and feels realistic, as well as fast, especially after the PATCH 9.0, I find not much needs to be done to the Global, as they are already pretty good.
My question is around the debate of FFB > TF or FFB < TF. I've read a numerous threads and posts about it, and some say one way while others believe in the opposite way. I was always running FFB > TF, but since reading this thread few weeks ago I started running FFB < TF. What do you guys think since Patch 9.0?
I started running FFB > TF again, and it feels good, just want to see what you guys think..? The reason I started running FFB > TF again, because recent posts on other threads suggest it's the way to go again since Patch 9.0
Btw, I'm on Xbox1 driving with TX 458.
Cheers :)
It's definitely up to you. Go with whichever feel best, just make sure you're not putting too much power through the wheel. I don't use a TX anymore, but when I did, I was running FF/TF at 100/65, and got the best feel I'd ever had in that wheel. I had to make other adjustments, though. Given the changes, they've made to the FFB, if I were tuning it today, I'd probably start at 100/50 or 90/65, with the RAC at 0.85, and see how that felt.
CSW v2 alternative global setting - DRI or PWM?
Statements of Andrew Weber, constructor of our system, obtained from a FFB discussion in pCARS 2 forum a few days ago.
Info here:
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?22938-Jack-Spade-FFB-Tweaker-Files&p=1241078&viewfull=1#post1241078
I totally remember reading about the drag in the CSW-v2 before I purchased it. In fact, I think it was one of the reasons I delayed purchasing for a while. At the time I didn't understand it, but it was a familiar complaint that I was seeing in online reviews, and I didn't want to be disappointed. I also think the drag was one of the reasons it took me a while to really get use to the wheel. Those alternate settings are interesting, because, before I turned Dri on, I saw someone else using PWM/PWMS at -0.04/0.04, and gave it shot. It felt good, now I understand why. I'll give your adjustments a shot tonight and compare them to Dri=3.
GrimeyDog
26-02-2016, 14:31
Funny... i dont feel any Drag in the V2 especially as compaired to My CSR Elite, Porsche 911gt2 and the TX458 i have them all and have used them all PS4 & XB1 and the V2 feels free as a bird in comparrison.... but i always keep PWM and PWMS at 0.00 with all of them.
Koza_Nostra
26-02-2016, 14:44
It's definitely up to you. Go with whichever feel best, just make sure you're not putting too much power through the wheel. I don't use a TX anymore, but when I did, I was running FF/TF at 100/65, and got the best feel I'd ever had in that wheel. I had to make other adjustments, though. Given the changes, they've made to the FFB, if I were tuning it today, I'd probably start at 100/50 or 90/65, with the RAC at 0.85, and see how that felt.
Thanks Haiden. I actually run very similar to what you said. At the moment I have FF/TF at 100/70 with RAC at 92 using JS settings, either Classic or 66% and I usually adjust Master Scale per car/track. Really loving the game at the moment, just need to figure out how to fix my phone or iPad on Playseat Challenge so I can use pCars dash app.. Any ideas folks? :)
Koza_Nostra
26-02-2016, 14:46
https://youtu.be/goizjcnj4oU
The Ruff All Day!!! Its Stock too!!! Thas my Fav car!!!
Im going to tune it and go for the 1:05.xxx!!!
in just waiting for 10.0 to drop just in case the FFB changes again...dont want to keep re tweeking the car.... the car tweeking is going to be harder than FFB tweeking!!!
I use same in car FFB settings with every car... but yet every car still feels and handles differently.
Thanks GD. I will have a look now and learn your lines and give it a go this weekend. I like RUF a lot as well, just I was quicker in the Z4 yesterday. As you said, I haven't been fiddling with car tunes yet, but I will start soon as I hope SMS won't change much more to tire/ffb physics. Let's hope anyway ;)
Funny... i dont feel any Drag in the V2 especially as compaired to My CSR Elite, Porsche 911gt2 and the TX458 i have them all and have used them all PS4 & XB1 and the V2 feels free as a bird in comparrison.... but i always keep PWM and PWMS at 0.00 with all of them.
I'm pretty sure it's a Fanatec design thing, and all wheels have it. It's a pretty well-discussed topic in a lot of sim forums, and usually one of the few dings the CSW-v2 ever gets in reviews, the other being price. :) . According to that post from Weber, the PWM and PWMS values aren't the cause of it; they're used to counter it and work better than the Dri setting--which is what a lot of people in those forums recommend, possibly because their sim doesn't have the PWM options or they're just unaware. I'm gonna give Weber's recommendation a shot tonight.
I'm pretty sure it's a Fanatec design thing, and all wheels have it. It's a pretty well-discussed topic in a lot of sim forums, and usually one of the few dings the CSW-v2 ever gets in reviews, the other being price. :) . According to that post from Weber, the PWM and PWMS values aren't the cause of it; they're used to counter it and work better than the Dri setting--which is what a lot of people in those forums recommend, possibly because their sim doesn't have the PWM options or they're just unaware. I'm gonna give Weber's recommendation a shot tonight.
When i started the baseline thread, it was one of the first parameter i tried to explain. The explanation from the official guide really puzzled me for a while. With my low drag G27, i found it made a great difference, even with low values(That adds or remove drag. I actually ran with added drag for a while). The Per Wheel Movement pamateres(PWM / PWMS / WPS)bloc is definitely something that can change the whole FFB, with only small changes.
You're right on that Haiden. pCars got lots of builtin tools that were not available in other sims. People had to use creative methods to acheive the same results.
On a side note, skoader FCM 1.2 ROCKS!. It really helps to see how Soft Clipping works. Help a great deal to play with it!!!
More on that later... Skiing time.
GrimeyDog
26-02-2016, 15:39
I'm pretty sure it's a Fanatec design thing, and all wheels have it. It's a pretty well-discussed topic in a lot of sim forums, and usually one of the few dings the CSW-v2 ever gets in reviews, the other being price. :) . According to that post from Weber, the PWM and PWMS values aren't the cause of it; they're used to counter it and work better than the Dri setting--which is what a lot of people in those forums recommend, possibly because their sim doesn't have the PWM options or they're just unaware. I'm gonna give Weber's recommendation a shot tonight.
post about your findings when you test it... as for me i Need the Heavier/Stronger wheel to keep me from over steering constantly... i find the slow speed steering Gain and Slow speed steering saturation enough to Make the wheel feel right for Me when turning at low speeds...
Low Speed Steering Gain and Low speed steering saturation are very important to keep the wheel feeling Natural/ Low Drag/ Drag Free in Low speed corners... Thats the Equivilent of RL Variable power assisted steering.... It gives More assist at low speeds and Less assist at high speeds.
SMS was spot on when they added those 2 settings.
GrimeyDog
26-02-2016, 15:52
Haaa!!! I finally started using Pcars Dash and PCars crew chief app!!! Yhe crew Chief is just a talking app correct??? i just saw #'s and heard voices from that 1.
post about your findings when you test it... as for me i Need the Heavier/Stronger wheel to keep me from over steering constantly... i find the slow speed steering Gain and Slow speed steering saturation enough to Make the wheel feel right for Me when turning at low speeds...
I will, for sure. You can still have the heavier wheel. That's why I bump up the in-car Masters, because it was a little light for my tastes. I think my preference has gone from strong to med-firm. It took a little bit of time to get used to the slight decrease (I'm talking a week or two, at least), but now I'm used it.
Haaa!!! I finally started using Pcars Dash and PCars crew chief app!!! Yhe crew Chief is just a talking app correct??? i just saw #'s and heard voices from that 1.
No, there's nothing but voice from that app. Check the settings, you can really fine tune the frequency and types of messages you get from the chief, as well as profanity :) . It's an awesome app. You can take your mind off your gauges and just drive. The spotter is crucial for racing. I don't like driving with other cars on the track without the spotter anymore. And I also think his temp measurements are more accurate than the game's, in terms of when things start overheating--tires, brakes, etc. Same with the PCars Dash. Things hit the red, before the game does. But both PCars Dash and Crew Chief seem to be on the same page, and more accurate than the game.
Also, PCars Dash shows the full scale of tire wear. The game telemetry is actually only showing the upper 50% of tread wear, which is why you still have grip, even when the tires are hollow in telemetry window. That confused me when I first started using it. I assume PCars did that for simplicity. If you were in a race, I doubt you'd want drive them below 65% anyway.
Koza_Nostra
26-02-2016, 16:26
Where and how do you guys attach the phones/tablets to use the apps? I need some clever way to attach it somewhere, so I can see it right in front of me. Playseat Challenge not really friendly for that, but I need to come up with some custom made arm or something :)
Where and how do you guys attach the phones/tablets to use the apps? I need some clever way to attach it somewhere, so I can see it right in front of me. Playseat Challenge not really friendly for that, but I need to come up with some custom made arm or something :)
I use 1 of these mate to hold my tablet in place where ever i want it.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00O8SS1A6?redirect=true&ref_=s9_cxhsh_co_g147_i5
Where and how do you guys attach the phones/tablets to use the apps? I need some clever way to attach it somewhere, so I can see it right in front of me. Playseat Challenge not really friendly for that, but I need to come up with some custom made arm or something :)
I've an Omega GT Art with a tabletop wheel deck. So I just use a tabletop tablet stand. Otherwise, I'd probably go with something like Ports suggested.
Using Pcars dash and crew chief add to the excitement of this game. Here is a thread on some mounts used for tablets. I myself went with the phone mount to the wheel. Tablet is in the future. Do I really need to spend $100.'s on a tablet which only be used for a speedometer ? Tough to jusify. But then again a Buttkicker is tops on my list.
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?43350-Tablet-mount
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00PIVEN54/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
post about your findings when you test it... as for me i Need the Heavier/Stronger wheel to keep me from over steering constantly... i find the slow speed steering Gain and Slow speed steering saturation enough to Make the wheel feel right for Me when turning at low speeds...
Low Speed Steering Gain and Low speed steering saturation are very important to keep the wheel feeling Natural/ Low Drag/ Drag Free in Low speed corners... Thats the Equivilent of RL Variable power assisted steering.... It gives More assist at low speeds and Less assist at high speeds.
SMS was spot on when they added those 2 settings.
For oversteering, you could try to actually add drag(+PWM, -PWMS). I did that for a while before, and i liked how the steering was less snappy while still precise.
As for Low Speed SG and SSat, aren't they applied when you're moving below 10 Mph? It shoulnd't happend very often beside the start of a race or getting stuck in a sand pit! :)
From the 3.0 patch notes: (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?36676-Project-CARS-All-Platforms-Patch-3-0-Release-notes-OUT-NOW-on-PC-PS4-XB1)
Low Speed Spring Coefficient & Saturation – the weight of the steering at slow speeds (<10mph) and when the car is stationary. The saturation is the maximum force for the spring and the coefficient is how quickly the spring takes effect. To avoid "cogging / notching" effects when stationary its best to leave the spring coefficient high and lower the saturation.
GrimeyDog
26-02-2016, 20:27
As for Low Speed SG and SSat, aren't they applied when you're moving below 10 Mph? It shoulnd't happend very often beside the start of a race or getting stuck in a sand pit! :)
From the 3.0 patch notes: (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?36676-Project-CARS-All-Platforms-Patch-3-0-Release-notes-OUT-NOW-on-PC-PS4-XB1)
Exactly but how many times are your really turning slower yhan 10MPH while racing.... by the time you slow down that Much you dont Need Slow speed help anymore.
Exactly but how many times are your really turning slower yhan 10MPH while racing.... by the time you slow down that Much you dont Need Slow speed help anymore.
Yeah, we're saying the same! :cool:
I want to thank everybody here who talked about the FFB, who brought their pov on the subject, who shared their thoughts. I felt the FFB blues some weeks ago. I put pCars aside for some days. Well, skoader just updated his application so i tried it again. It made me push Scoops and Soft Clipping in ways i didn't thought was possible or meant to. Even if the telemetry isn't really different than before, i liked the wheel alot.
Before, i ran with default car ffb, without SoP. With my current globals, i was able to use Jack's classic #1 again, witch do include SoP. I'll post them again when i'm done with fine tuning.
What i want to get accross is that a given pCars tool(Deadzones, RAs, Scoops, whatever...) can't be judged by itself without looking at the whole globals. It's the balance of the lot that brings great FFB to a wheel.
Thanks guys, i wouldn't be playing again if you guys weren't there! :D
CSW v2 alternative global setting - DRI or PWM?
Statements of Andrew Weber, constructor of our system, obtained from a FFB discussion in pCARS 2 forum a few days ago.
Info here:
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?22938-Jack-Spade-FFB-Tweaker-Files&p=1241078&viewfull=1#post1241078
Jack, I zeroed out the Scoop the settings and lowered the gain, like you suggested, but I didn't like the feel. So I gave it a shot with SK/SR at 0.86/0.28, and it felt much better. It was a good alternative to using Dri.
So, with the Scoop setting in place, I tried Weber's suggestion for dialing out/down drag. I had to go all the way to -0.7/0.3 to get a frictionless spin in the wheel. At that setting, I could basically just flick the wheel and it would keep rotating from the momentum. But on the track, the wheel was just a little too light for me. So I went with a setting of -0.6/0.3. At that setting, the wheel was still pretty much drag free, just a smidge of friction, but when I dialed the Master Scales back in an did a few laps, it felt much better than -0.7. I tried PWM=-0.5, and it felt good too, but that was also the point where drag started coming back into the wheel, not much, but I could feel it, so I'm going to keep it at -0.6 for now. My guess is, I'll end up going with either -0.6 or -0.5. Thanks for sharing that! :victorious:
Funny... i dont feel any Drag in the V2 especially as compaired to My CSR Elite, Porsche 911gt2 and the TX458 i have them all and have used them all PS4 & XB1 and the V2 feels free as a bird in comparrison.... but i always keep PWM and PWMS at 0.00 with all of them.
Grimey -- You can definitely feel the drag if you do Weber's test, with the Master Scales set to zero. The drag is there for sure, even when PWM/PWMS are set to 0/0. And a surprisingly good amount of it, too. You probably won't want to zero your out, because you like the extra resistance, but you might want to dial it down some to get a little fidelity out of the wheel.
tennenbaum
27-02-2016, 09:01
Using Pcars dash and crew chief add to the excitement of this game. Here is a thread on some mounts used for tablets. I myself went with the phone mount to the wheel. Tablet is in the future. Do I really need to spend $100.'s on a tablet which only be used for a speedometer ? Tough to jusify. But then again a Buttkicker is tops on my list.
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?43350-Tablet-mount
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00PIVEN54/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
yes crew chief is fun, what a great idea. pCArs dash i also use. what i still miss is an app that couples telemetry with replay... i hope vrhive will add that soon, than vrhive would be a killer app.
btw: how to get a buttkicker connected to the ps4 ??
Bunga412
27-02-2016, 12:28
Hey guys I thought I might join the conversation. Some of you guys will know me from my other post. Let me start off by saying I was wrong. Yep that's right I chased the mz dragon and ended back where I started.
But that doesn't mean I'm finished. I have done another week of research and testing. I have tried a lot of things in this forum, some worked, some didn't. Some things felt great and some felt completely wrong. There is a lot of very smart people in here. Hell, a lot of stuff I read on here I can't even get my head around it.
I'm still trying to get jacks classic settings to work on my t300 with the ps4 with good global settings and making minimal adjustments to the car settings. So this is what I have arrived at. I am getting rid of fx and mz smoothing, I am taking 25% of the car master scale and sop. I like that number. I'm not touching mz. �� This has aloud me to bump the TF up.
I am feeling a lot more bumps without the heavy wheel. I think this is taking a step in the right direction. I hoping to do more racing less tuning.
These are my new global settings.
FFB 100
TF 72 It could be 75 but I like a slightly lighter wheel.
DDR 0.02
DDR 0.01
RAG 1.10
RAB 0.10
RAC 0.85
SK 0.70
SR 0.30
MSS 0.20
LssC 0.75
LssC 0.50
SG 1.00
If someone gives it a shot, don't hold back tell us what u think thanks.
I'm still trying to get jacks classic settings to work on my t300 with the ps4 with good global settings and making minimal adjustments to the car settings. So this is what I have arrived at. I am getting rid of fx and mz smoothing, I am taking 25% of the car master scale and sop. I like that number. I'm not touching mz. �� This has aloud me to bump the TF up.
I am feeling a lot more bumps without the heavy wheel. I think this is taking a step in the right direction. I hoping to do more racing less tuning.
Check out his most recent post here (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1241480&viewfull=1#post1241480). His old settings were using a wheel setting called Dri, which is specific to Fanatec wheels. It's no doubt one of things that made it difficult to replicate the feel with other hardware. But, using the method described in that link, he's posted settings that don't rely on Dri, and should therefore be easier to replicate.
Yep that's right I chased the mz dragon and ended back where I started.
That's the annoying thing about dragons, they are notorious for flying in circles. Give them a day, and either tennenbaum or poirqc will give us detailed physics and graphs showing the aerodynamics that lead to this phenomenon, because they're brilliant and because they can.
The way I see it, we have been able to identify both a FFB Dragon and FFB Unicorn. Thankfully, there is no great danger in chasing either of them. The trouble starts when they start chasing us...that's when we're either going to get burnt, or poked in the butt.
yes crew chief is fun, what a great idea. pCArs dash i also use. what i still miss is an app that couples telemetry with replay... i hope vrhive will add that soon, than vrhive would be a killer app.
btw: how to get a buttkicker connected to the ps4 ??
If you have a subwoofer you can just tap off of that.
Androphonomania
27-02-2016, 16:15
I am usIng grimey's setting and we have some competition running in our forums with the lotus 49c.
The problem i have is that my wheel (T500) is oscillating with this car on the straight and braking really feels like an earthquake.
Can't get rid of it as i like grimeys tweak (adjusted drr and drz to all possible values). Adjusted scoop based on wheelchecker's logs.
Jacks ffb tweak behaves pretty much the same, tested it, its not that brutal though.
The only possibility is to leave the game on standard ffb with jacks in car tweaks. But this feels pretty much lifeless against grimeys and Jacks tweak. Do you have any idea what is causing these heavy oscillations?
Im just starting to get into this whole ffb case...
Touring cars seem fine as i race mainly GT3 and Group A.
tennenbaum
27-02-2016, 16:26
If you have a subwoofer you can just tap off of that.
didn't know it's this easy. - so i sit on my subwoofer ;)
I will try it later and see how it feels. I haven't used that in a while but I know the fa works fine which has always been a problem car. There are a lot of things that will cause that mz and fy for sure will if set too high. But you can also turn those down to much just too cover up wheel issues. Its a nasty circle sometimes.lol
GrimeyDog
27-02-2016, 16:32
I am usIng grimey's setting and we have some competition running in our forums with the lotus 49c.
The problem i have is that my wheel (T500) is oscillating with this car on the straight and braking really feels like an earthquake.
Can't get rid of it as i like grimeys tweak (adjusted drr and drz to all possible values). Adjusted scoop based on wheelchecker's logs.
Jacks ffb tweak behaves pretty much the same, tested it, its not that brutal though.
The only possibility is to leave the game on standard ffb with jacks in car tweaks. But this feels pretty much lifeless against grimeys and Jacks tweak. Do you have any idea what is causing these heavy oscillations?
Im just starting to get into this whole ffb case...
Touring cars seem fine as i race mainly GT3 and Group A.
I will work on this... Try increasing the Arm angle and see if the Oscillation goes away.... let me know what happens.
I will work on this... Try increasing the Arm angle and see if the Ocillation goes away.... let me know what happens.
That's definitely worth a try. You will notice that Jack's in-car tweak for the FA, he's got the Arm Angle absolutely cranked to maximum (4500) and it seems to help eliminate the oscillation in those cars, which has always been a problem. The 49C is a very different beast, but he has it set to 2000. Could be room for notching that up and seeing if it helps, as Grimey suggests.
didn't know it's this easy. - so i sit on my subwoofer ;)
If your receiver has two sub-woofer outputs, you can use the second one for the Buttkicker, which is what I'm planning to do. The only thing I'm unsure about is whether or not I'll still need to send an optical signal to the BK, or if the sub output alone will be enough. I've seen conflicting notes on it. If you don't have two sub outs, I think you have to send an optical signal to it, but I'm not sure about that. Since I have two, those are the notes I've been following.
GrimeyDog
27-02-2016, 17:07
If your receiver has two sub-woofer outputs, you can use the second one for the Buttkicker, which is what I'm planning to do. The only thing I'm unsure about is whether or not I'll still need to send an optical signal to the BK, or if the sub output alone will be enough. I've seen conflicting notes on it. If you don't have two sub outs, I think you have to send an optical signal to it, but I'm not sure about that. Since I have two, those are the notes I've been following.
i run My 2x Buttkickers from the Audio output jack on the back of My Tv...No Drama No Stress Works Great!!! I use the Complete Buttkicker Gamer 2 system.... Amp & Buttkicker
PureMalt77
27-02-2016, 17:08
Hey guys I thought I might join the conversation. Some of you guys will know me from my other post. Let me start off by saying I was wrong. Yep that's right I chased the mz dragon and ended back where I started.
But that doesn't mean I'm finished. I have done another week of research and testing. I have tried a lot of things in this forum, some worked, some didn't. Some things felt great and some felt completely wrong. There is a lot of very smart people in here. Hell, a lot of stuff I read on here I can't even get my head around it.
I'm still trying to get jacks classic settings to work on my t300 with the ps4 with good global settings and making minimal adjustments to the car settings. So this is what I have arrived at. I am getting rid of fx and mz smoothing, I am taking 25% of the car master scale and sop. I like that number. I'm not touching mz. �� This has aloud me to bump the TF up.
I am feeling a lot more bumps without the heavy wheel. I think this is taking a step in the right direction. I hoping to do more racing less tuning.
These are my new global settings.
FFB 100
TF 72 It could be 75 but I like a slightly lighter wheel.
DDR 0.02
DDR 0.01
RAG 1.10
RAB 0.10
RAC 0.85
SK 0.70
SR 0.30
MSS 0.20
LssC 0.75
LssC 0.50
SG 1.00
If someone gives it a shot, don't hold back tell us what u think thanks.
In fact I was testing your "old" settings this morning and was about to post some comments when I saw you had new ones, so, had to redo the test, and...
Check out his most recent post here (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1241480&viewfull=1#post1241480). His old settings were using a wheel setting called Dri, which is specific to Fanatec wheels. It's no doubt one of things that made it difficult to replicate the feel with other hardware. But, using the method described in that link, he's posted settings that don't rely on Dri, and should therefore be easier to replicate.
... moments after I saw this marvelous post from Haiden! IMG, this is F*** Fantastic! I think I finally found the sweet FFB spot in this game (for my taste at least). No setup has given me such a good feel, constant lap times, more than before. Goodbye Scoops, Welcome Per Wheel Movement! My settings in my signature.
Finally a setup I can use with JS settings. I never liked them before for the simple fact that it made me slow! Now we are talking again. Next step will be a comparison Classic vs Sop+Lateral etc.
Here is a link to the FFB graph, although it feels good, it has lots of spikes... not sure if a good or bad sign. But I can feel every road detail, start/finish paint (from now one will call that the Grimeydog's line).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-auxh9Ks4eI
But the world is not perfect, one more issue to address is a strong oscillation at wheel center. If I use the calculator gizmo, I would have to use something like 0.15 DRR, but I really have to hold the wheel all times, even in plain straights. I have to bring it down to 0.03 for it to completely disappear or find a compromise (right now 0.05).
Which leads me to this one ...
That's definitely worth a try. You will notice that Jack's in-car tweak for the FA, he's got the Arm Angle absolutely cranked to maximum (4500) and it seems to help eliminate the oscillation in those cars, which has always been a problem. The 49C is a very different beast, but he has it set to 2000. Could be room for notching that up and seeing if it helps, as Grimey suggests.
... so will play around with Arm Angle now...
If your receiver has two sub-woofer outputs, you can use the second one for the Buttkicker, which is what I'm planning to do. The only thing I'm unsure about is whether or not I'll still need to send an optical signal to the BK, or if the sub output alone will be enough. I've seen conflicting notes on it. If you don't have two sub outs, I think you have to send an optical signal to it, but I'm not sure about that. Since I have two, those are the notes I've been following.
You can simply splice into the sub speaker cable also with an rca cable if you have limited options.
i run My 2x Buttkickers from the Audio output jack on the back of My Tv...No Drama No Stress Works Great!!! I use the Complete Buttkicker Gamer 2 system.... Amp & Buttkicker
Not really an option. There's no output coming from my TV. All audio and video runs through the receiver. It's no problem, though. The receiver has multiple sub outs.
You can simply splice into the sub speaker cable also with an rca cable if you have limited options.
No need the receiver can run multiple subs.
In fact I was testing your "old" settings this morning and was about to post some comments when I saw you had new ones, so, had to redo the test, and...
... moments after I saw this marvelous post from Haiden! IMG, this is F*** Fantastic! I think I finally found the sweet FFB spot in this game (for my taste at least). No setup has given me such a good feel, constant lap times, more than before. Goodbye Scoops, Welcome Per Wheel Movement! My settings in my signature.
Finally a setup I can use with JS settings. I never liked them before for the simple fact that it made me slow! Now we are talking again. Next step will be a comparison Classic vs Sop+Lateral etc.
Here is a link to the FFB graph, although it feels good, it has lots of spikes... not sure if a good or bad sign. But I can feel every road detail, start/finish paint (from now one will call that the Grimeydog's line).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-auxh9Ks4eI
But the world is not perfect, one more issue to address is a strong oscillation at wheel center. If I use the calculator gizmo, I would have to use something like 0.15 DRR, but I really have to hold the wheel all times, even in plain straights. I have to bring it down to 0.03 for it to completely disappear or find a compromise (right now 0.05).
Which leads me to this one ...
... so will play around with Arm Angle now...
Puremalt,
You got the no scoops to work with the t300 only using only pwm?
Jack Spade
27-02-2016, 17:44
In fact I was testing your "old" settings this morning and was about to post some comments when I saw you had new ones, so, had to redo the test, and...
... moments after I saw this marvelous post from Haiden! IMG, this is F*** Fantastic! I think I finally found the sweet FFB spot in this game (for my taste at least). No setup has given me such a good feel, constant lap times, more than before. Goodbye Scoops, Welcome Per Wheel Movement! My settings in my signature.
Finally a setup I can use with JS settings. I never liked them before for the simple fact that it made me slow! Now we are talking again. Next step will be a comparison Classic vs Sop+Lateral etc.
Here is a link to the FFB graph, although it feels good, it has lots of spikes... not sure if a good or bad sign. But I can feel every road detail, start/finish paint (from now one will call that the Grimeydog's line).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-auxh9Ks4eI
But the world is not perfect, one more issue to address is a strong oscillation at wheel center. If I use the calculator gizmo, I would have to use something like 0.15 DRR, but I really have to hold the wheel all times, even in plain straights. I have to bring it down to 0.03 for it to completely disappear or find a compromise (right now 0.05).
Which leads me to this one ...
... so will play around with Arm Angle now...
Let me get this straight, my latest global setting suggestion is an alternative for FANATEC wheels only especially for the CSW v2.... PWM + Dri @ off.
By default Fanatec wheels have a certain amount of drag, "Dri @3" no drag.
I am usIng grimey's setting and we have some competition running in our forums with the lotus 49c.
The problem i have is that my wheel (T500) is oscillating with this car on the straight and braking really feels like an earthquake.
Can't get rid of it as i like grimeys tweak (adjusted drr and drz to all possible values). Adjusted scoop based on wheelchecker's logs.
Jacks ffb tweak behaves pretty much the same, tested it, its not that brutal though.
The only possibility is to leave the game on standard ffb with jacks in car tweaks. But this feels pretty much lifeless against grimeys and Jacks tweak. Do you have any idea what is causing these heavy oscillations?
Im just starting to get into this whole ffb case...
Touring cars seem fine as i race mainly GT3 and Group A.
That seems to be a common issue/complaint with that car. Doesn't seem to matter which settings people are using, either. Try turning Mz down a bit more. I've got a CSW-v2, and with Jack's globals and in-car settings on console (Mz=26), I don't feel much oscillation and no brake quake. If I run the default in-car settings with Mz=100, or raise Mz in Jack's settings, I feel the oscillation and get heavy brake quake. It's possible that there simply a difference in hardware, so while Mz=26 might be low enough on the CSW-v2, you might need to take it a bit lower on T500. Also, Jack's settings have a little Mz smoothing, something the defaults don't. Might want to add that as well.
Let me get this straight, my latest global setting suggestion is an alternative for FANATEC wheels only especially for the CSW v2.... PWM + Dri @ off.
By default Fanatec wheels have a certain amount of drag, "Dri @3" no drag.
I think the lack of the Dri setting might have been one of the issues with trying to get your settings to work with other wheels. I'm not sure if any, or how much drag, is present in other wheels. But I assume Weber's suggested test and method for dialing it out would work if any is present. If that's the case, then the PWM values could help people adapt your settings to other wheel. Of course, that's just an idea. I haven't tried it with the TX or T300, and don't plan to. I just saw his comment and suggested he check out the post.
That's the annoying thing about dragons, they are notorious for flying in circles. Give them a day, and either tennenbaum or poirqc will give us detailed physics and graphs showing the aerodynamics that lead to this phenomenon, because they're brilliant and because they can.
The way I see it, we have been able to identify both a FFB Dragon and FFB Unicorn. Thankfully, there is no great danger in chasing either of them. The trouble starts when they start chasing us...that's when we're either going to get burnt, or poked in the butt.
Skoader, Diluvian, Tennenbaum can. I can't :D Not that i don't want to, but beside drawing a line in paint, i can't really do much more beside testing it and saying it works! :D
In fact I was testing your "old" settings this morning and was about to post some comments when I saw you had new ones, so, had to redo the test, and...
... moments after I saw this marvelous post from Haiden! IMG, this is F*** Fantastic! I think I finally found the sweet FFB spot in this game (for my taste at least). No setup has given me such a good feel, constant lap times, more than before. Goodbye Scoops, Welcome Per Wheel Movement! My settings in my signature.
Finally a setup I can use with JS settings. I never liked them before for the simple fact that it made me slow! Now we are talking again. Next step will be a comparison Classic vs Sop+Lateral etc.
Here is a link to the FFB graph, although it feels good, it has lots of spikes... not sure if a good or bad sign. But I can feel every road detail, start/finish paint (from now one will call that the Grimeydog's line).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-auxh9Ks4eI
But the world is not perfect, one more issue to address is a strong oscillation at wheel center. If I use the calculator gizmo, I would have to use something like 0.15 DRR, but I really have to hold the wheel all times, even in plain straights. I have to bring it down to 0.03 for it to completely disappear or find a compromise (right now 0.05).
Which leads me to this one ...
... so will play around with Arm Angle now...
Per wheel movement does indeed change the FFB alot. You don't need much of it(- or +) to find your sweet spot. Scoops and PWM / PWMS are pretty different. The more drag you remove with PWM/PWMS, the more twitchy the FFB will become. Scoops are used to soften low forces and shake high forces. It's a matter of finding your sweet spot where you will flow.
Your FFB graph in the video seems pretty good! I would suggest to use Wheel Position Smoothing to deal with the artefacs(noise) around the FFB line, in case you have it with every car. With that said, if using WPS change your FFB too much for your taste, you could leave everything as is. You don't have much noise anyway.
If only some cars do it, you could use smoothing in the Car FFB with individual scales.
Right now, the sheet and FCM may suggest an agressive DRR value. It do support SC(FCM) but not RAs. Depending on your whole globals, you may need to tone it down. The higher DRR is, the higher DRF will follow it. In my view, it's probably a good thing to use the least deadzone removals possible.
Glad you found a FFB setup that shines! :D
Puremalt,
You got the no scoops to work with the t300 only using only pwm?
As always, you're not forced to use every pCars tools to have a good FFB. :)
Jack Spade
27-02-2016, 18:15
That seems to be a common issue/complaint with that car. Doesn't seem to matter which settings people are using, either. Try turning Mz down a bit more. I've got a CSW-v2, and with Jack's globals and in-car settings on console (Mz=26), I don't feel much oscillation and no brake quake. If I run the default in-car settings with Mz=100, or raise Mz in Jack's settings, I feel the oscillation and get heavy brake quake. It's possible that there simply a difference in hardware, so while Mz=26 might be low enough on the CSW-v2, you might need to take it a bit lower on T500. Also, Jack's settings have a little Mz smoothing, something the defaults don't. Might want to add that as well.
The term "Smoothing" on console is not what it really is, actually it´s a Low Pass Filter (on PC - Low Pass), this filter cuts off high frequencies.
There´s a spin-off force "grinding" (high frequency) on Mz and Fx on several cars, the reason I use it.
I went i read the official guide, i was somewhat puzzled by PWM/PWMS/WPS. I did some tests and came to this conclusion:
PWM / PWMS / WPS(Damping)
FFB wheel construction is very different depending on your wheel's model. When they're not plugged, some will be very free moving and other will be dragged by the wheel's motor. This tool is used to compensate for that. You'll be able to set the behavior of the steering wheel to you taste with that. You want turn ins and turn outs to feel natural to you, where subconsciently, when you turn, it turns at that moment, to the pace you want. Not before, not after.
I'll talk about Per Wheel Movement, Per Wheel Movement Squared and Wheel Position Smoothing as PWM /PWMS / WPS
There's 3 cases where you want to use this tool:
You like the build in drag of the wheel, it's turning as expected
There's some "lag" when you turn, you want more responsiveness
It's too twitchy when you turn, you need to correct your line too quickly
PWM 0/PWMS 0 won't change the default behavior of your steering wheel
PWM positive value/ PWMS negative nalue will give you a slower moving wheel
PWM negative value/ PWMS positive value will give you a faster moving wheel
In both case, you don't want turn ins and turn outs that accelerate. You'll understand if you mess with those values. Most of the time, low values will do the trick.
This is where WPS comes in. Depending on you're whole controller FFB setup, you'll probably need some WPS. The more you put, the less the wheel will oscillate by itself. However, you may lose low torque details at some point. Idealy, you need to find a balance where the wheel doesn't oscillate too much while keeping as much details a possible. Depending on how much smoothing you use within the Car FFB, you may need less WPS because of that.
Does it makes sense?
PureMalt77
27-02-2016, 18:28
Puremalt,
You got the no scoops to work with the t300 only using only pwm?
Yes, that's right. Just reviewed a bit and reduced to PWM=0.05 and PWMS=0.03.
I cannot guarantee it will be a good setting in certain cases (eg. Grimey's in-car 100 Master Scales)... but is good for my globals and Jack's settings (most of them).
Let me get this straight, my latest global setting suggestion is an alternative for FANATEC wheels only especially for the CSW v2.... PWM + Dri @ off.
By default Fanatec wheels have a certain amount of drag, "Dri @3" no drag.
Understand that, but decided to give a shot anyway. I could never like your settings before, as they always made me slow, but combined with that is really good!
Of course some cars are suffering, like FA and the oscillation issue. For that I'm reducing the master scales, but still not 100% solved, even with highest Arm Angle.
Per wheel movement does indeed change the FFB alot. You don't need much of it(- or +) to find your sweet spot. Scoops and PWM / PWMS are pretty different. The more drag you remove with PWM/PWMS, the more twitchy the FFB will become. Scoops are used to soften low forces and shake high forces. It's a matter of finding your sweet spot where you will flow.
Your FFB graph in the video seems pretty good! I would suggest to use Wheel Position Smoothing to deal with the artefacs(noise) around the FFB line, in case you have it with every car. With that said, if using WPS change your FFB too much for your taste, you could leave everything as is. You don't have much noise anyway.
If only some cars do it, you could use smoothing in the Car FFB with individual scales.
Right now, the sheet and FCM may suggest an agressive DRR value. It do support SC(FCM) but not RAs. Depending on your whole globals, you may need to tone it down. The higher DRR is, the higher DRF will follow it. In my view, it's probably a good thing to use the least deadzone removals possible.
Glad you found a FFB setup that shines! :D
As always, you're not forced to use every pCars tools to have a good FFB. :)
Well, maybe will be a mix of PWM and some scoop to fight the forces, but I don't want to fight them! They are just good now. :D
I always wanted to know exactly the effects of Wheel Position Smoothing. Running on default now (0.04), but between that and zero I don't notice much difference.
So, my oscillation happens at straights in high-speed. The FA with default JS Classics is almost undriveable above 280Km/h. Reducing the master scales helps, but not yet perfect. You say "smoothing", but what should I smooth? Fx and Mz? Or Fy since is oscillating left-rights? :confused:
Not really an option. There's no output coming from my TV. All audio and video runs through the receiver. It's no problem, though. The receiver has multiple sub outs.
No need the receiver can run multiple subs.
Some surround systems don't have a separate sub out. So splicing into the sub wiring with an rca to plug into the amp for the buttkicker is the only option.
If your receiver has two sub-woofer outputs, you can use the second one for the Buttkicker, which is what I'm planning to do. The only thing I'm unsure about is whether or not I'll still need to send an optical signal to the BK, or if the sub output alone will be enough. I've seen conflicting notes on it. If you don't have two sub outs, I think you have to send an optical signal to it, but I'm not sure about that. Since I have two, those are the notes I've been following.
There are multiple ways to hook them up but you only need to use one of them. So sub out with an rca would be fine.
Using Pcars dash and crew chief add to the excitement of this game. Here is a thread on some mounts used for tablets. I myself went with the phone mount to the wheel. Tablet is in the future. Do I really need to spend $100.'s on a tablet which only be used for a speedometer ? Tough to jusify. But then again a Buttkicker is tops on my list.
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?43350-Tablet-mount
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00PIVEN54/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Youll love the buttkicker. I got the next one up from the gamer one. I think it was the lfe its awesome! Adds a lot to the game. After you use it for a while you immediately notice when you forget to turn it on.
The term "Smoothing" on console is not what it really is, actually it´s a Low Pass Filter (on PC - Low Pass), this filter cuts off high frequencies.
There´s a spin-off force "grinding" (high frequency) on Mz and Fx on several cars, the reason I use it.
Ah, that makes sense. I don't use smoothing with your settings and don't have any problems. I wondered why you were using it. That's explains it.
Of course some cars are suffering, like FA and the oscillation issue. For that I'm reducing the master scales, but still not 100% solved, even with highest Arm Angle.
Well, maybe will be a mix of PWM and some scoop to fight the forces, but I don't want to fight them! They are just good now. :D
I always wanted to know exactly the effects of Wheel Position Smoothing. Running on default now (0.04), but between that and zero I don't notice much difference.
So, my oscillation happens at straights in high-speed. The FA with default JS Classics is almost undriveable above 280Km/h. Reducing the master scales helps, but not yet perfect. You say "smoothing", but what should I smooth? Fx and Mz? Or Fy since is oscillating left-rights? :confused:
Interesting. Seems like a hardware thing, because I use to get a little oscillation in the FA, but when I switched to Jack's globals and in-car it's pretty much gone, only a faint vibration on certain tracks, but nothing worth worrying about.
There are multiple ways to hook them up but you only need to use one of them. So sub out with an rca would be fine.
That's what I was thinking from everything I read. Thanks!
Yes, that's right. Just reviewed a bit and reduced to PWM=0.05 and PWMS=0.03.
I cannot guarantee it will be a good setting in certain cases (eg. Grimey's in-car 100 Master Scales)... but is good for my globals and Jack's settings (most of them).
Understand that, but decided to give a shot anyway. I could never like your settings before, as they always made me slow, but combined with that is really good!
Of course some cars are suffering, like FA and the oscillation issue. For that I'm reducing the master scales, but still not 100% solved, even with highest Arm Angle.
Well, maybe will be a mix of PWM and some scoop to fight the forces, but I don't want to fight them! They are just good now. :D
I always wanted to know exactly the effects of Wheel Position Smoothing. Running on default now (0.04), but between that and zero I don't notice much difference.
So, my oscillation happens at straights in high-speed. The FA with default JS Classics is almost undriveable above 280Km/h. Reducing the master scales helps, but not yet perfect. You say "smoothing", but what should I smooth? Fx and Mz? Or Fy since is oscillating left-rights? :confused:
WPS is pretty low by default. Jack's folder #7 put some more(0.1 in Car FFB instead of 0.04 WPS). WPS will remove arsh artifacts. If you don't have them, WPS may not be needed.
By themselves, Scoops only reduce all forces, some more(low), some less(high). The wrestling itself will come from a high Game Master FFB. The closer to the actual max torque output of a wheel you are, the more chances you have to wrestle.
I would say, if you like your FFB overall in most cases, you could try to move the caster angle of the cars that are not stable at high speed. It should help with that.
Good luck.
Yeah, we're saying the same! :cool:
I want to thank everybody here who talked about the FFB, who brought their pov on the subject, who shared their thoughts. I felt the FFB blues some weeks ago. I put pCars aside for some days. Well, skoader just updated his application so i tried it again. It made me push Scoops and Soft Clipping in ways i didn't thought was possible or meant to. Even if the telemetry isn't really different than before, i liked the wheel alot.
Before, i ran with default car ffb, without SoP. With my current globals, i was able to use Jack's classic #1 again, witch do include SoP. I'll post them again when i'm done with fine tuning.
What i want to get accross is that a given pCars tool(Deadzones, RAs, Scoops, whatever...) can't be judged by itself without looking at the whole globals. It's the balance of the lot that brings great FFB to a wheel.
Thanks guys, i wouldn't be playing again if you guys weren't there! :D
I find it funny after all this time and with the help of everyone here we are still figuring out how it all works exactly. I'm still finding interactions I didn't expect.
PureMalt77
27-02-2016, 19:11
WPS is pretty low by default. Jack's folder #7 put some more(0.1 in Car FFB instead of 0.04 WPS). WPS will remove arsh artifacts. If you don't have them, WPS may not be needed.
By themselves, Scoops only reduce all forces, some more(low), some less(high). The wrestling itself will come from a high Game Master FFB. The closer to the actual max torque output of a wheel you are, the more chances you have to wrestle.
I would say, if you like your FFB overall in most cases, you could try to move the caster angle of the cars that are not stable at high speed. It should help with that.
Good luck.
WPS seems to help a bit, also increased to 0.1.
And your previous explanation to PWM was very helpful, my values were too high...
And the FA, with my current globals the master scales is too high for me anyway (32), I don't have arms after 5 laps, and the oscillation is very strong. Bringing it down to 22 gives me the best: oscillation from rare to none, and good force, still heavy enough for me though!
Anyway, enough FFB for tonight! All latest changes in my link. T300 testers welcome! It's been a long time since I did not have that big smile in my face after a testing day!!! Now I deserve a drink!
Cheers! :very_drunk:
WPS seems to help a bit, also increased to 0.1.
And your previous explanation to PWM was very helpful, my values were too high...
And the FA, with my current globals the master scales is too high for me anyway (32), I don't have arms after 5 laps, and the oscillation is very strong. Bringing it down to 22 gives me the best: oscillation from rare to none, and good force, still heavy enough for me though!
Anyway, enough FFB for tonight! All latest changes in my link. T300 testers welcome! It's been a long time since I did not have that big smile in my face after a testing day!!! Now I deserve a drink!
Cheers! :very_drunk:
Keep in mind that WPS is the smoothing of the whole FFB, applied at the end the chain, where the FxyzMz smoothing is for individuals scales, probably applied before going into the spindle (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?35147-Baseline-Wheel-FFB-Values-Google-Sheet-amp-FCM-Universal)(Go to FFB Balance Plan).
Cheers!
I find it funny after all this time and with the help of everyone here we are still figuring out how it all works exactly. I'm still finding interactions I didn't expect.
It seems there's infinite possibilities with this damn FFB system! Gems to be discovered! :D
Fight-Test
27-02-2016, 22:13
Some surround systems don't have a separate sub out. So splicing into the sub wiring with an rca to plug into the amp for the buttkicker is the only option.
Haiden I know I use a hdmi decoder and it also has audio left and right outputs. Hdmi from playstation into box and hdmi from box to tv. Then run out of decoder to the buttkicker. U can use just a single audio wire or use a left/right audio cable that runs into the one jack on amp or whatever is needed at the buttkicker you have.
I also have a beringer amp that was about 30 bucks that plugs into the ps4 by usb. Ps4 reads the amp as headphone so you can plug your headphones into amp, crew chief into the amp and have both in headphones. Then run from audio out on amp to buttkicker amp. Works both ways for me but I use the decoder. Not home but give u details of both tomorrow when I am.
GrimeyDog
28-02-2016, 01:02
I am usIng grimey's setting and we have some competition running in our forums with the lotus 49c.
The problem i have is that my wheel (T500) is oscillating with this car on the straight and braking really feels like an earthquake.
Can't get rid of it as i like grimeys tweak (adjusted drr and drz to all possible values). Adjusted scoop based on wheel checker's logs.
Jacks ffb tweak behaves pretty much the same, tested it, its not that brutal though.
The only possibility is to leave the game on standard ffb with jacks in car tweaks. But this feels pretty much lifeless against grimeys and Jacks tweak. Do you have any idea what is causing these heavy oscillations?
Im just starting to get into this whole ffb case...
Touring cars seem fine as i race mainly GT3 and Group A.
Formula "A" Re-Tweek Very Little to No Oscillation!!! 0.01% Oscillation!!! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8B9mOtfNj-I)
I Re-tweeked the in car FFB settings... very nice Little to No Oscillation:yes: telemetry shown on 2nd lap and settings shown at end of Video.
check the FFB Graph Wheel and road feel is still very lively with No Oscillation... watch the Drivers Hands No shaking other than regular road changes causing steering motion.
just needed to turn down a few in car FFB settings... No changes made to Global or wheel settings.
Ran a nice time while tweeking!!! this time would have put Me at 20 on the leader boards!!!:cool:
Formul A in Car settings... using My tweek these settings Should work on any formula car that's giving Oscillation problems.
Let me know what you think:D
Master Scale 100
Fx 10
Fy 30.00
Fz 50.01
Mz 20.00
Body Scale 0.01
Body stiffness 50.00
SoP Scale 100
Sop Lat 10.0
Sop Dif 50.00
everything else is same as in the PDF
Edit: tenenbaum, Poirqc, Haiden, morpwr i think yall should try this!!! or any 1 that races formula "A" needs to try these settings.
GrimeyDog
28-02-2016, 05:10
updates to the Man kave!!!
Using Pcars Dash and Pit crew Really adds extra immersion to Pcars!!! The apps give sooo much more info than you can see on the regular HUD. Really Nice:yes:
STEELJOCKEY
28-02-2016, 05:30
Nice Grimey, but I see you've gone to the dark side!
Bunga412
28-02-2016, 08:13
Check out his most recent post here (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1241480&viewfull=1#post1241480). His old settings were using a wheel setting called Dri, which is specific to Fanatec wheels. It's no doubt one of things that made it difficult to replicate the feel with other hardware. But, using the method described in that link, he's posted settings that don't rely on Dri, and should therefore be easier to replicate.
Haiden again I learnt something today. The t300 doesn't suffer much drag, it's no fanatec, but -0.01 PWM is all the t300 needs to come alive. That's it. No PWMS The feeling comes in right after the dead zone. It helps initiate the turn in. I think it was mowpr talking about the turn in feeling. It's the missing link I have been looking for. Thanks a bunch. Now more testing.
tennenbaum
28-02-2016, 09:53
i run My 2x Buttkickers from the Audio output jack on the back of My Tv...No Drama No Stress Works Great!!! I use the Complete Buttkicker Gamer 2 system.... Amp & Buttkicker
Good tip. Seems to be fun. But does the game provide really useful FFB info in the audio channel (!?). With consoles there aren't any directional (e.g. different tires) rumbling info's, right? For different vibration directions i'm under the impression it needs a PC with a simvibe decoder or something similar. Since specific rumbling effects are come from the physic engine (that are not in the 5.1 audio signal).
PureMalt77
28-02-2016, 09:56
Haiden again I learnt something today. The T300 doesn't suffer much drag, it's no fanatec, but -0.01 PWM is all the t300 needs to come alive. That's it. No PWMS The feeling comes in right after the dead zone. It helps initiate the turn in. I think it was mowpr talking about the turn in feeling. It's the missing link I have been looking for. Thanks a bunch. Now more testing.
My current settings are fully inspired in yours, apart of the Scoop / PWM / PWMS / WMS. Even if the post from Haiden was specific to Fanatec, I interpret it differently.
The T300 has probably the baby motor comparing to T500 and all Fanatec, (don't know about the G29). In addition, Scoop reduces low forces and most of these forces comes to the wheel too faint. I'm not saying using Scoops is wrong, but with this wheel, I think is ideal.
Today I want to measure the wheel temperature with a long running session. With yesterday's tests I did not notice the wheel was running to hot, neither it entered the safe-mode state.
Bunga412
28-02-2016, 10:40
My current settings are fully inspired in yours, apart of the Scoop / PWM / PWMS / WMS. Even if the post from Haiden was specific to Fanatec, I interpret it differently.
The T300 has probably the baby motor comparing to T500 and all Fanatec, (don't know about the G29). In addition, Scoop reduces low forces and most of these forces comes to the wheel too faint. I'm not saying using Scoops is wrong, but with this wheel, I think is ideal.
Today I want to measure the wheel temperature with a long running session. With yesterday's tests I did not notice the wheel was running to hot, neither it entered the safe-mode state.
Glad I inspired someone. I did try your setting first thing this morning. 5.30 to be preside, the wife was fast asleep. After I tried it I knew I had to pay close attention to PWM.
I have made some more changes today and I am a real happy camper. I have posted my newest settings on the oscarolim site. PWM, what a difference it makes. I tested it with the ffb holy bible. http://www.wmdcars.ru/docs/pCarsFFBGuide20150416.pdf
I have changed scoop knee to 28 to feel a little more road feel. Left the tire force at 72. It gives me a little head room when adjusting the cars master scale. I take 25% off the master scale, then use that as tuning window. If the car feels heavy I turn it down one click. To light up one click up. I have modded my wheel with a bigger fan, so it doesn't get hot, but I think it is in its tollerences.
The PWM is that little bit of detail I have always been missing. No more slow speed spins. Good luck finding your sweet spot.
Bunga412
28-02-2016, 11:04
Actually pure malt would you mind giving my settings another shot for me. It's always good to get feed back. I think using the PWM has filled in that missing detail in between the dead zone and the scoops. I am feel hell of a lot more bumps. If you could do that it would be great. Thanks.
Gofast01
28-02-2016, 11:52
Hello😀 I'm jusing a microphone stand. It's very adjustable and by do it this way you do not get the vibrations from the wheelstand / chair. 228493228494
PureMalt77
28-02-2016, 11:52
Glad I inspired someone. I did try your setting first thing this morning. 5.30 to be preside, the wife was fast asleep. After I tried it I knew I had to pay close attention to PWM.
I have made some more changes today and I am a real happy camper. I have posted my newest settings on the oscarolim site. PWM, what a difference it makes. I tested it with the ffb holy bible. http://www.wmdcars.ru/docs/pCarsFFBGuide20150416.pdf
I have changed scoop knee to 28 to feel a little more road feel. Left the tire force at 72. It gives me a little head room when adjusting the cars master scale. I take 25% off the master scale, then use that as tuning window. If the car feels heavy I turn it down one click. To light up one click up. I have modded my wheel with a bigger fan, so it doesn't get hot, but I think it is in its tollerences.
The PWM is that little bit of detail I have always been missing. No more slow speed spins. Good luck finding your sweet spot.
Hy Bunga, your previous posting made me analyze / consider something: the thing scoop vs PWM is actually wrong. What really compensates the lack os Scoop is WPS. At zero you got spikes in the graph, 2 clicks are enough (0.02) to get rid of the graphs, but still too low to avoid oscillation in the FA. 0.10 gives me the best world.
PWM/PWMS I see it now as how "sharp" or "slow" you make your steering, just like in-car Steering Ratio. Negative PWM / Positive PWMS makes it sharper and vice-versa.
I'm now running -0.02 PWM and 0.00 PMWS.
Oh, and with these settings, my wheel did not pass over 42°C (measured at the heat sink) in a 10 min. run.
Actually pure malt would you mind giving my settings another shot for me. It's always good to get feed back. I think using the PWM has filled in that missing detail in between the dead zone and the scoops. I am feel hell of a lot more bumps. If you could do that it would be great. Thanks.
Will do! My latest settings also in the link.
@all: put your settings on that site and add a link to ur signature! Avoids asking all the time "where can I find ur settings..."
tennenbaum
28-02-2016, 12:10
In fact I was testing your "old" settings this morning and was about to post some comments when I saw you had new ones, so, had to redo the test, and...
... moments after I saw this marvelous post from Haiden! IMG, this is F*** Fantastic! I think I finally found the sweet FFB spot in this game (for my taste at least). No setup has given me such a good feel, constant lap times, more than before. Goodbye Scoops, Welcome Per Wheel Movement! My settings in my signature.
Finally a setup I can use with JS settings. I never liked them before for the simple fact that it made me slow! Now we are talking again. Next step will be a comparison Classic vs Sop+Lateral etc.
Here is a link to the FFB graph, although it feels good, it has lots of spikes... not sure if a good or bad sign. But I can feel every road detail, start/finish paint (from now one will call that the Grimeydog's line).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-auxh9Ks4eI
But the world is not perfect, one more issue to address is a strong oscillation at wheel center. If I use the calculator gizmo, I would have to use something like 0.15 DRR, but I really have to hold the wheel all times, even in plain straights. I have to bring it down to 0.03 for it to completely disappear or find a compromise (right now 0.05).
Which leads me to this one ...
... so will play around with Arm Angle now...
It's a pity i can't test that right now. (too absorbed with work)...
Isn't your wheel getting sigificantly heavier when you skip scoop reduction? Isn't PWM and PWMS meant to remove drag and has nothing to do with the linearity or non-linearity of the I/O curve, or i did i miss something?
I also thought the drag correction is only a topic with Fanatic Wheels, while the T300 is free of drag anyway (at least mine is). As much as i can imagine that using PWM or especially PWMS can "sharpen" the steering feeling, due to artificially added countering force, i find the method a bit strange. And i don't think that is what AJ had in mind when he talked about CWS specific issues. If you follow my post until the end it might become clearer why i think it's possible that you want more steering sensitivity by the help of PWM(S) that you could achieve more efficiently without getting unwanted effects at the same time.
I seems to me that two different things got packed in one box. The one thing is PWM(S). The other the entire scoop topic. For a long time is was a bit of the holy grail to linearize the I/= input/output curve, with the help of SK and SR. Now - which is good - it looks as if people start to realize that by eradicating the bowed I/O curve they loose the lower forces with their details. It was said many times before, but nothing wrong to repeat it from time to time, for strong wheels like the Fanatec wheels a more linear I/O curve is usually better, but the less good (strong) the wheel is, the more you need a bit of de-linearized input/output behavior. What actually happens when you set SK and SR to Zero, and add drag with PWM and PMWS, you do two things at the same time that are independent from each other. You bring out more details of the lower forces and you additionally add some artificial friction / resistance to the wheel, which gives the impression of more fidelity.
What i also find remarkable is how the FFB 100 topic is still vivid. No matter what JS asserts, feeding the T300 with a 100% FFB signal "overdrives" this wheel. It's simply the truth. Insofar it's very interesting to see how the "problem" got "solved" without the need to finally say: "Ok, let's give up the the FFB 100% statement for wheels on consoles."
Let me explain this: Instead of leveling your FFB mix with the "peak-meter" HUD telemetry properly to 100% without clipping and then outputting this beautifully fully leveled "master-mix" ("bouncing the track") to the wheel with FFB set to 75, you're leveling your mix to 75% and then run it with 100 FFB to the wheel.
Here comes the catch: One will say first "So what? 1.00 x 0.75 = 0.75 x 1.00, where is the difference? So it doesn't matter!". And second: "And no, i level my FFB mix to 100% - just watch my video of the telemetry hud-, i'm using 1.00 x 1.00 = 1.00 therefore i use 100% dynamic range (instead of 75%)."
But i say: What's happening here is something different. (Important: I just use your setting as the perfect example to illustrate my point. I'm not criticizing your setting! And as you will see below in my post it's even possible that the FFB/TF 100/75 setting has an advantage... even while i think that JS should give up the 100% FFB for wheels on consoles.
When i look closer to your settings and your video, it's obvious that the main part of your mix happens around 75% - 80%. It visualizes by a curve that is called most often as the "Snake-line", with only the "spikes" reaching 100%. If you see the "snake-line" rather as the "body" of your FFM mix you get closer to true nature of the FFB mix: "Snake-line" evokes the idea of a feathering curve, instead the snake line actually incorporates the weight of the wheel, since the weight (overall strength of FFB ) is dominated by the snake-line, not the spikes. So if you look at "the body" of your telemetry FFB signal you recognize that most of the time the FFB signal-strength (output) doesn't exceed approx. 75% (0.75). So with the help of RAC your wheel isn't fed with 100% but practically with a signal strength of 0.75. More or less close to the value recommended for the T300 with console: 75!
Ok, now you say, "but what about my spikes that go up to a 100?!" I say: Great and nothing to say bad about it! Even better: Since your spikes "overdrive" your wheel only for very quick moments, they can't harm the wheel and they will not cause the "grinding" that only occurs from a FFB "body" exceeding the T300 "max-75" range. Side-note: The "grinding" coming with signals around 100% is nothing else than the proof that the wheel is "overdriven" then.
So to sum it up: With your "body" of around 75% you use the full "correct" elektro-mechanical dynamic range of the R300, and - on top of it - you benefit from extra 25% signal force (for the spikes) that you pump into the >75 range of the T300 that can be used four short impulses, but not constant high signals. In audio technology same "tricks" are used for maxing out the dynamic range, or actually extending (!) the dynamic range (headroom) by allowing strong but short signal impulses to overdrive the technical correct signal-corridor of devices, knowing that it won't destroy the device and knowing that the impulse is the "spice" in the mix. Meaning the "spice" doesn't make the melody of the mix, so if the spike's audio quality is distorted and corrupted it doesn't matter due to its short time of being at work.
Why do i bring all that up, while everything looks cool and dandy by using this "trick"? A trick that is also very smart! But only when you know exactly what it does. Otherwise it's an unnecessary workaround to cover up the imo wrong FFB 100 advice.
From reading your telemetry i just see that you're loosing 25% dynamic for those steering forces that really matter: Fy (and SoP) and Mz. Instead you are generous and leave the rest of the dynamic range to Fz... which makes it vivid, but Fz doesn't really help to give you a better differentiation with your important nuances of steering. Why not stretching /expanding / scaling your FFB "body" (snake-line) to almost 100% (and letting the spikes clip, see my remark about the "spice" above.)? Well, you can't do that, because then your FFB 100 is too high - causing overdrive and grinding to your wheel, since the T300 is not made for longer lasting forces higher than 75! ;-)
That is why my approach is to set the FFB to 75 and mix a well balanced FFB mix with a "body" that spreads within a 0.00 - 1.00 corridor, instead of 0.00 - 0.75. By saying so, even if you like a your FFB saturated (rather flat snake-line, instead of a line /body with rather round up and down shapes) it's imo a better method, because this way you get at least 25% more differentiation of all forces below saturation.
And don't be suspicious about "Where did my spikes go?" There are still there, but you just don't see them so much any more. They are clipped. But cutting off the tip of a needle you can still poke with it! :D
Everybody who is still following the excursion will say: "i can achieve the same effect by setting the FFB mix and it's "body" to 75% (with the help of the telemetry hud) and go with the FFB 100 setting.
Absolutely! As long as you're aware of what you're doing without the small hud window in your way while trying to design the ideal shape of your FFB body under the the two imaginary 75% lines... And most important: You're aware that it makes a difference if you feed the RAG/RAB/RAC module with TF = 100 or TF = 75!
And since i doubt that most people are aware of the difference i still find JS FFB = 100 advice for console users problematic. Because half of the people try to avoid unintended* or intended "slower" forces to go into the range of 75-100%, (where the wheel renders overdrive artefacts) while the other half still wonders why their wheel doesn't feel right, - or worse, they think that's normal.
*JS put his settings at values that keep the FFB "body", therefore the more constant "slower" forces, for console users more or less in a range that doesn't exceed 75% of the full dynamic range of 0.00 - 1.00. That's why it doesn't show that his FFB = 100 setting can be problematic. But it get's in your way the moment you are looking for your "own" settings.
PureMalt77
28-02-2016, 12:20
Actually pure malt would you mind giving my settings another shot for me. It's always good to get feed back. I think using the PWM has filled in that missing detail in between the dead zone and the scoops. I am feel hell of a lot more bumps. If you could do that it would be great. Thanks.
So, just did my friend.The feel is there, but as I wondered, is just "less feel". I also feel every bump, just crispier, the "spikes" sent to the wheel are stronger.
And the main thing for me is when you use SoP - reason I could never like JS settings before. When the car enters a slice the the SoP sends that signal to the wheel, it's somehow unbalanced, as the scoop knee decided how much force will be decreased or not. Is very hard to find the sweet knee spot... Without it, I feel the forces are transmitted linearly across.
PWM is a matter of taste really. Your positive settings confirm my theory, I just need to turn my wheel more...
PureMalt77
28-02-2016, 12:28
Hy Bunga, your previous posting made me analyze / consider something: the thing scoop vs PWM is actually wrong. What really compensates the lack os Scoop is WPS. At zero you got spikes in the graph, 2 clicks are enough (0.02) to get rid of the graphs, but still too low to avoid oscillation in the FA. 0.10 gives me the best world.
PWM/PWMS I see it now as how "sharp" or "slow" you make your steering, just like in-car Steering Ratio. Negative PWM / Positive PWMS makes it sharper and vice-versa.
I'm now running -0.02 PWM and 0.00 PMWS.
Oh, and with these settings, my wheel did not pass over 42°C (measured at the heat sink) in a 10 min. run.
It's a pity i can't test that right now. (too absorbed with work). Isn't your wheel getting sigificantly heavier when you skip scoop reduction? PMW and PMWS is to remove drag and has has nothing to do (??) with the linearity or non-linearity of the I/O curve, or i did i miss something? I also thought the drag correction (or adding on purpose ;-) is only a topic with Fanatic Wheels, while the T300 is free of drag anyway (at least mine is).
What i also find remarkable how the FFB 100 topic is still vivid. No matter what JS asserts, feeding the T300 with a 100% FFB signal "overdrives" this wheel. It's simply the the truth. Insofar it's very interesting to me to see how the "problem" got "solved" without the need to finally say: "Ok let's give up the the 100% statement for wheels on consoles too."
Let me explain this: Instead of leveling your FFB mix with the "peak-meter" HUD telemetry properly to 100% without clipping and then outputting this beautifully fully leveled "master-mix" ("bouncing the track") to the wheel with FFB set to 75, you're leveling your mix to 75% and then run it with 100 FFB to the wheel.
Here comes the catch: One will say first "So what" 1.00 x 0.75 = 0.75 = 0.75 x 1.00, where is the difference?, so it doesn't matter!". And second: And no, i level my FFB mix to 100% - just watch my video of the telemetry hud-, so i'm using 1.00 x 1.00 = 1.00 therefore i use 100% dynamic range (instead of 75%).
But i say: What's happening here is something different. Note: I just use your setting as the perfect example to illustrate my point. I'm not criticizing your setting!! And as you will quickly see it's even possible that the FFB/TF 100/75 setting has an advantage... even while i think that JS should give up the 100% FFB for wheels on consoles.
When i look closer to your settings and your video, it's obvious that the main part of your mix happens around 75% - 80%. It visualizes by a curve that is called most often as the "Snake-line", with only the "spikes" reaching 100%. If you see the "snake-line" rather as the "body" of your FFM mix you get closer to true nature of the FFB mix: "Snake-line" evokes the idea of a feathering curve, instead the snake line actually incorporates the weight of the wheel, since the weight (overall strength of FFB ) is dominated by the snake-line, not the spikes. So if you look at "the body" of your telemetry FFB signal you recognize that most of the time the FFB signal-strength (output) doesn't exceed approx. 75% (0.75). So with the help of RAC your wheel isn't fed with 100% but practically with a signal strength of 0.75. More or less close to the value recommended for the T300 with console: 75!
Ok, now you say, but what about my spikes that go up to a 100?! That's great and nothing to say bad about it. Even better: Since your spikes "overdrive" your wheel only for very quick moments they can't harm the wheel and they will not cause the "grinding" that comes usually with FFB 100 when the signal output lasts for longer times at around 100% (1.00). Side-note: That grinding coming with signals around 100% is nothing else than the proof that the wheel is "overdriven" then.
So to sum it up: With your "body" of around 75% you use the full "correct" elektro-mechanical dynamic range of the R300, and - on top of it - you benefit from extra 25% signal force (for the spikes) that you pump into the >75 range of the T300 that can be used four short impulses, but not constant high signals. In audio technology same "tricks" are used for maxing out the dynamic range, or actually extending (!) the dynamic range (headroom) by allowing strong but short signal impulses to overdrive the technical correct signal-corridor of devices, knowing that it won't destroy the device and knowing that the impulse is the "spice" in the mix. Meaning the "spice" doesn't make the melody of the mix, so if the spike's audio quality is distorted and corrupted it doesn't matter due to its short time of being at work.
Why do i bring all that up, while everything looks cool and dandy by using this "trick"? A trick that is also very smart! But only when you know exactly what it does. Otherwise it's an unnecessary workaround to cover up the imo wrong FFB 100 advice.
From reading your telemetry i just see that you're loosing 25% dynamic for those steering forces that really matter: Fy (and SoP) and Mz. Instead you are generous and leave the rest of the dynamic range to Fz... which makes it vivid, but Fz doesn't really help to give you a better differentiation with your important nuances of steering. Why not stretching /expanding / scaling your FFB "body" (snake-line) to almost 100% (and letting the spikes clip, see my remark about the "spice" above.)? Well, you can't do that, because then your FFB 100 is too high - causing overdrive and grinding to your wheel, since the T300 is not made for longer lasting forces higher than 75! ;-)
That is why my approach is to set the FFB to 75 and mix a well balanced FFB mix with a "body" that spreads within a 0.00 - 1.00 corridor, instead of 0.00 - 0.75. By saying so, even if you like a your FFB saturated (rather flat snake-line, instead of a line /body with rather round up and down shapes) it's imo a better method, because this way you get at least 25% more differentiation of all forces below saturation.
And don't be suspicious about "Where did my spikes go?" There are still there, but you just don't see them so much any more. They are clipped. But cutting of the tip of a needle, you can still poke with it! :D
Everybody who is still following the excursion will say: "i can achieve the same effect by setting the FFB mix and it's "body" to 75% (with the help of the telemetry hud) and go with the FFB 100 setting.
Absolutely! As long as you're aware of what you're doing without the small hud window in your way while trying to design the ideal shape of your FFB body under the the two imaginary 75% lines... And most important: You're aware that it makes a difference if you feed the RAG/RAB/RAC module with TF = 100 or TF = 75!
And since i doubt that most people are aware of the difference i still find JS FFB = 100 advice for console users problematic. Because the one half of the people simply try to avoid unintended or intended "slower" forces to go into the range of 75-100%, (where the wheel shows unwanted overdrive artefacts) while the other half still wonders why their wheel doesn't feel right, - or worse think that must be normal.
Hi tennenbaum! I wish I could write like you someday!
Since that I've done more tweaks (read above), will publish another video with the latest chart, where I got rid of the 100% spikes completely.
But to your FFB=100 topic: Since the final master is nor part of telemetry, that's where I concentrated. My theory is to "allow" the wheel to receive everything, and control it where I can see it - in the graph. I tried several combinations, but once I take out that 25% from the master, I cannot be sure I'm really clipping or not.
I'm convinced that the T300RS needs no Scoop Settings. But once you remove it, you have to control the forces somewhere else, and for that we have numerous options.
For the moment, TF and WPS are the way for me. PWM+PWMS is for me a steering ratio, you set to you taste, making the curve linear, more convex or more concave.
Bunga412
28-02-2016, 12:42
Thanks for trying it mate. I'm just glad we are both getting some where.
This is just a idea, but I think fanatec put the dri3 option into there wheels to bring them in line with the cheaper wheels on the market. Where the game developers would use those presets to create the force feedback for games of yesterday year. When they switch that option off there wheels are very linear. That is the feeling we are now trying to replicate by using scoops with the t300 and g29's.
Tennenbaum is right by saying the t300 does have very little drag. That is why I only set it to 0.01. It is prefrence, I will give yours another shot tomorrow after work. I'm going to be dreaming project cars again.
tennenbaum
28-02-2016, 13:29
Hi tennenbaum! I wish I could write like you someday!
Since that I've done more tweaks (read above), will publish another video with the latest chart, where I got rid of the 100% spikes completely.
But to your FFB=100 topic: Since the final master is nor part of telemetry, that's where I concentrated. My theory is to "allow" the wheel to receive everything, and control it where I can see it - in the graph. I tried several combinations, but once I take out that 25% from the master, I cannot be sure I'm really clipping or not.
I'm convinced that the T300RS needs no Scoop Settings. But once you remove it, you have to control the forces somewhere else, and for that we have numerous options.
For the moment, TF and WPS are the way for me. PWM+PWMS is for me a steering ratio, you set to you taste, making the curve linear, more convex or more concave.
Fair enough :D Cool thing to do it the way you describe it. And it's a good guideline for others. As long as they know which elements of the signal they can lift above the imaginary 75% lines in the hud, and which ones better to keep lower to avoid unwanted T300 "overdrive"-artefacts.
Haiden again I learnt something today. The t300 doesn't suffer much drag, it's no fanatec, but -0.01 PWM is all the t300 needs to come alive. That's it. No PWMS The feeling comes in right after the dead zone. It helps initiate the turn in. I think it was mowpr talking about the turn in feeling. It's the missing link I have been looking for. Thanks a bunch. Now more testing.
Good tip. Seems to be fun. But does the game provide really useful FFB info in the audio channel (!?). With consoles there aren't any directional (e.g. different tires) rumbling info's, right? For different vibration directions i'm under the impression it needs a PC with a simvibe decoder or something similar. Since specific rumbling effects are come from the physic engine (that are not in the 5.1 audio signal).
Hi tennenbaum! I wish I could write like you someday!
Since that I've done more tweaks (read above), will publish another video with the latest chart, where I got rid of the 100% spikes completely.
But to your FFB=100 topic: Since the final master is nor part of telemetry, that's where I concentrated. My theory is to "allow" the wheel to receive everything, and control it where I can see it - in the graph. I tried several combinations, but once I take out that 25% from the master, I cannot be sure I'm really clipping or not.
I'm convinced that the T300RS needs no Scoop Settings. But once you remove it, you have to control the forces somewhere else, and for that we have numerous options.
For the moment, TF and WPS are the way for me. PWM+PWMS is for me a steering ratio, you set to you taste, making the curve linear, more convex or more concave.
Thanks for trying it mate. I'm just glad we are both getting some where.
This is just a idea, but I think fanatec put the dri3 option into there wheels to bring them in line with the cheaper wheels on the market. Where the game developers would use those presets to create the force feedback for games of yesterday year. When they switch that option off there wheels are very linear. That is the feeling we are now trying to replicate by using scoops with the t300 and g29's.
Tennenbaum is right by saying the t300 does have very little drag. That is why I only set it to 0.01. It is prefrence, I will give yours another shot tomorrow after work. I'm going to be dreaming project cars again.
My G27 also doesn't have much drag. PWM(with according PWMS) from -0,02 to 0,02 really change it's behavior. Don't need more than that.
There's something that i always wondered about PWM(S). On high drag wheel, where as an example, you have something like PWM -0,10 / PWMS 0,05, it's easy to set PWMS. On low drag wheel, where PWM may be -0,01 following the suggested PWMS = -(PWM / 2) can't be done. PWMS, in th UI, is either 0,00 or 0,01.
I would really like to see a video of someone trying to check if there's wheel acceleration(The front wheels turn faster and faster) when turning at the same pace.
As for Scoops, it's only to change the output responce of a wheel. But you could very well use the natural responce the hardware give by itself!
(I don't have a PS4, take this with a grain of salt)ninja'd by tennebaum the great! :D
I think tennebaum and puremalt77 gave great explanations. In either case, someone have to understand that it's important that the carrier doesn't go above 75% most of the time. When using GM 75%, you're kinda safe proofing your wheel because even if you clip like hell in the telemetry, you won't break your wheel. With GMFFB at 100%, if you're messing around and you stay above 75% for too long, you may damage the base.
Because in either case, the FFB deadzone of a wheel if always the same. It just a matter of sending less signal in that space. I wonder how much PWM helps with the deadzone. Because, from my understanding, when you remove drag, you're actually telling the wheel to turn in the same side as you, it could be viewed as a small boost. Maybe it helps just a tad... i don't know, i'm just thinking out loud.
tennenbaum
28-02-2016, 13:41
Haiden again I learnt something today. The t300 doesn't suffer much drag, it's no fanatec, but -0.01 PWM is all the t300 needs to come alive. That's it. No PWMS The feeling comes in right after the dead zone. It helps initiate the turn in. I think it was mowpr talking about the turn in feeling. It's the missing link I have been looking for. Thanks a bunch. Now more testing.
Frankly, i didn't consider that possibility in my previous post, where i looked at it from a more abstract perspective. Practically, it sound's very promising. (I'm annoyed that i can't test it immediately ;-) So i got two good hints: PWM, and steering sensitivity from 50 to 100 (morpwr said so too recently.).
PureMalt77
28-02-2016, 13:42
Fair enough :D Cool thing to do it the way you describe it. And it's a good guideline for others. As long as they know which elements of the signal they can lift above the imaginary 75% lines in the hud, and which ones better to keep lower to avoid unwanted T300 "overdrive"-artefacts.
As promised, 2 FFB charts, the usual RUF-GT3 @Watkins and FA @Sakitto. Both laps tested with zero assists to avoid any surprise in feel.
(don't mind my lap on the FA, don't drive that too often. probably Haiden will laugh at it!). All stock setup...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4kESj4Q3xE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9qtWbMT1CA
tennenbaum
28-02-2016, 13:49
My G27 also doesn't have much drag. PWM(with according PWMS) from -0,02 to 0,02 really change it's behavior. Don't need more than that.
There's something that i always wondered about PWM(S). On high drag wheel, where as an example, you have something like PWM -0,10 / PWMS 0,05, it's easy to set PWMS. On low drag wheel, where PWM may be -0,01 following the suggested PWMS = -(PWM / 2) can't be done. PWMS, in th UI, is either 0,00 or 0,01.
I would really like to see a video of someone trying to check if there's wheel acceleration(The front wheels turn faster and faster) when turning at the same pace.
As for Scoops, it's only to change the output responce of a wheel. But you could very well use the natural responce the hardware give by itself!
(I don't have a PS4, take this with a grain of salt)ninja'd by tennebaum the great! :D
I think tennebaum and puremalt77 gave great explanations. In either case, someone have to understand that it's important that the carrier doesn't go above 75% most of the time. When using GM 75%, you're kinda safe proofing your wheel because even if you clip like hell in the telemetry, you won't break your wheel. With GMFFB at 100%, if you're messing around and you stay above 75% for too long, you may damage the base.
Because in either case, the FFB deadzone of a wheel if always the same. It just a matter of sending less signal in that space. I wonder how much PWM helps with the deadzone. Because, from my understanding, when you remove drag, you're actually telling the wheel to turn in the same side as you, it could be viewed as a small boost. Maybe it helps just a tad... i don't know, i'm just thinking out loud.
I'm very happy that you summed up my somehow lengthy trial to explain a matter that is profane and tricky at the same time. "Carrier" is the best word for it! Thanks. Great Forum. Great Thread. Great contributors!
tennenbaum
28-02-2016, 14:05
As promised, 2 FFB charts, the usual RUF-GT3 @Watkins and FA @Sakitto. Both laps tested with zero assists to avoid any surprise in feel.
(don't mind my lap on the FA, don't drive that too often. probably Haiden will laugh at it!). All stock setup...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4kESj4Q3xE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9qtWbMT1CA
EDIT: My "prognosis" below is wrong. I didn't compare the two videos well enough. So don't get confused.:yes:
And???? :D Which setting do you prefer:D ? The Ruf on Watkins Glen Short with the setting from the video in this post (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4kESj4Q3xE), or from your previous post. Just from looking at the graph of this video here, I'd say you got more differentiation, and less saturation. Over all more balanced. May be a little bit less "entertaining", but more "analytic". While the previous video with its different setting was less "telling" but with "grainier" spikes that just spiced up a more on/off saturation feeling during cornering. Ok, that's just from reading the graphs. You might have experienced a totally different impression ;-) However, I'd predict in the long run faster lap times should be achieved with the more "analytic" settings, with "carriers" that are less saturated while cornering. We'll probably never know for sure...:no:
But what did you really change here? You didn't use Scoop. But in the previous video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-auxh9Ks4eI you had no Scoop either. But the entire characteristic of your FFB changed... I'd say you changed RAC and RAB quite a bit and/or lowered Fz, while setting TF or SG higher. :no: I can't imagine that the different look of the graph mainly comes from changing PWM? ...just bubbling.
GrimeyDog
28-02-2016, 15:03
Good tip. Seems to be fun. But does the game provide really useful FFB info in the audio channel (!?). With consoles there aren't any directional (e.g. different tires) rumbling info's, right? For different vibration directions i'm under the impression it needs a PC with a simvibe decoder or something similar. Since specific rumbling effects are come from the physic engine (that are not in the 5.1 audio signal).
The TV audio is Enough just Hook.the left and right line into the Buttkicker amp... When you use Headphoones its the ultimate.Brain Sccrew... you See the Hit on the Left you feel it happen on the left so when the Buttkicker Vibrates your Brain tricks you to believe what you feel is Left Biased.even though the whole Chair Is Vibrating.
I use 2 Buttkickers and they play Left and Right .... Even though tjey are Mouted to same Chair i can feel.difference between L and R buttkicker due to Placement of Buttkickers that Really helps with the Immersion Factor.
Haiden again I learnt something today. The t300 doesn't suffer much drag, it's no fanatec, but -0.01 PWM is all the t300 needs to come alive. That's it. No PWMS The feeling comes in right after the dead zone. It helps initiate the turn in. I think it was mowpr talking about the turn in feeling. It's the missing link I have been looking for. Thanks a bunch. Now more testing.
Awesome. That makes sense too, with PWM =-0.01, there wouldn't be any need for any positive PWMS.
Good tip. Seems to be fun. But does the game provide really useful FFB info in the audio channel (!?). With consoles there aren't any directional (e.g. different tires) rumbling info's, right? For different vibration directions i'm under the impression it needs a PC with a simvibe decoder or something similar. Since specific rumbling effects are come from the physic engine (that are not in the 5.1 audio signal).
It works, but it's basically just converting bass to rumble. Sim vibe lets you customize your output and choose which effects you want to be transmitted as rumble effects.
Everybody who is still following the excursion will say: "i can achieve the same effect by setting the FFB mix and it's "body" to 75% (with the help of the telemetry hud) and go with the FFB 100 setting.
Absolutely! As long as you're aware of what you're doing without the small hud window in your way while trying to design the ideal shape of your FFB body under the the two imaginary 75% lines... And most important: You're aware that it makes a difference if you feed the RAG/RAB/RAC module with TF = 100 or TF = 75!
I think most people are now aware that it needs to be balanced elsewhere, especially here. It is possible to use FF=100 without overdriving the wheel and running into heating issues. It's an option for people that want to use it, and prefer the feel of that balance. If it doesn't work for you, that fine, too. :)
As promised, 2 FFB charts, the usual RUF-GT3 @Watkins and FA @Sakitto. Both laps tested with zero assists to avoid any surprise in feel.
(don't mind my lap on the FA, don't drive that too often. probably Haiden will laugh at it!). All stock setup...
Sakitto is tough--It definitely takes me a decent amount of laps to get into the groove with that, more than other tracks. Some of the corners are tricky, because they tighten up on you halfway through, and aren't really the way you think going in. A few of them force me to relearn the apexes again every time I come back to the track. :) I can't remember my time on that one. Maybe I'll run it this afternoon. :) Damn... I'm supposed to be working write now--getting the art direction together for my book cover design and polishing up a new chapter to submit to my writing group. The chapter is due today and needs some work. But PCars is calling me, so they might just have to deal with a rough draft. :) This game is like crack.
PureMalt77
28-02-2016, 16:36
And???? :D Which setting do you prefer:D ? The Ruf on Watkins Glen Short with the setting from the video in this post (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4kESj4Q3xE), or from your previous post. Just from looking at the graph of this video here, I'd say you got more differentiation, and less saturation. Over all more balanced. May be a little bit less "entertaining", but more "analytic". While the previous video with its different setting was less "telling" but with "grainier" spikes that just spiced up a more on/off saturation feeling during cornering. Ok, that's just from reading the graphs. You might have experienced a totally different impression ;-) However, I'd predict in the long run faster lap times should be achieved with the more "analytic" settings, with "carriers" that are less saturated while cornering. We'll probably never know for sure...
But what did you really change here? You didn't use Scoop. But in the previous video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-auxh9Ks4eI you had no Scoop either. But the entire characteristic of your FFB changed... I'd say you changed RAC and RAB quite a bit and/or lowered Fz, while setting TF or SG higher. I can't imagine that the different look of the graph mainly comes from changing PWM? ...just bubbling.
The change between 1st and 2nd videos were:
PWM: -0.05 -> -0.02
PWMS: 0.02 -> 0.00
WPS: 0.00 -> 0.10
PWM & PWMS: I can't relate that to drag in any form! All I see in those is a steering ratio, is what I can feel.
The key player here which helped me deal with the spikes and oscillation is Wheel Position Smoothing.
I do like the feel in the 1st chart, crispy small "kicks", but TBH they were almost exaggerated, like a grain of sand between the belt and gear in very bumpy places.
The 2nd graph still kicks nice, but smoother, and I can drive the open wheelers with it (FA, 98T). Nuances of the road can be felt on both, and this is exactly what the Scoop is killing in my opinion, at least in the T300. I tried Bunga's settings, and although you can feel the bumps, they just don't "kick" the way it's doing without scoop.
And wheel temp measure after 10 min FA drive below 45°C. Did not have a chance for a real long run, but no fading, just perfect.
I was strongly considering getting a Fanatec gear, but after this weekend, my TM will live for a while...
PureMalt77
28-02-2016, 16:45
Sakitto is tough--It definitely takes me a decent amount of laps to get into the groove with that, more than other tracks. Some of the corners are tricky, because they tighten up on you halfway through, and aren't really the way you think going in. A few of them force me to relearn the apexes again every time I come back to the track. :) I can't remember my time on that one. Maybe I'll run it this afternoon. :) Damn... I'm supposed to be working write now--getting the art direction together for my book cover design and polishing up a new chapter to submit to my writing group. The chapter is due today and needs some work. But PCars is calling me, so they might just have to deal with a rough draft. :) This game is like crack.
Yes, the choice for Sakitto was purely for FFB testing, long straights for the oscillation issue, quick direction changes, a bit of everything. But it's been a long time I did not drive Sakitto nor FA, and the car was fully stock. I'm sure a LOT can be done here in terms of lap times. I did 1:20.xxx, best time on steam with def. setup is 1:18.xxx and overall 1:12.6xx. You will crack those laps in no time!!!
The change between 1st and 2nd videos were:
PWM: -0.05 -> -0.02
PWMS: 0.02 -> 0.00
WPS: 0.00 -> 0.10
PWM & PWMS: I can't related that to drag in any form! All I see in those is a steering ratio, is what I can feel.
The key player here which helped me deal with the spikes and oscillation is Wheel Position Smoothing.
I do like the feel in the 1st chart, crispy small "kicks", but TBH they were almost exaggerated, like a grain of sand between the belt and gear in very bumpy places.
The 2nd graph still kicks nice, but smoother, and I can drive the open wheelers with it (FA, 98T). Nuances of the road can be felt on both, and this is exactly what the Scoop is killing in my opinion, at least in the T300. I tried Bunga's settings, and although you can feel the bumps, they just don't "kick" the way it's doing without scoop.
And wheel temp measure after 10 min FA drive below 45°C. Did not have a chance for a real long run, but no fading, just perfect.
I was strongly considering getting a Fanatec gear, but after this weekend, my TM will live for a while...
I would suggest to run with the Audi R8 V10 plus, with stock mechanical setup, at any track. Without PWMS, you may feel what the official guide mean by wheel acceleration, where the movement of the front wheel don't follow what you are doing with your physical steering wheel.
It was mostly good without PWMS in most cars, but it really stood out with the Audi R8 V10 plus. Try turning at different velocity and you'll see what i mean.
tennenbaum
28-02-2016, 17:02
The change between 1st and 2nd videos were:
PWM: -0.05 -> -0.02
PWMS: 0.02 -> 0.00
WPS: 0.00 -> 0.10
PWM & PWMS: I can't relate that to drag in any form! All I see in those is a steering ratio, is what I can feel.
The key player here which helped me deal with the spikes and oscillation is Wheel Position Smoothing.
I do like the feel in the 1st chart, crispy small "kicks", but TBH they were almost exaggerated, like a grain of sand between the belt and gear in very bumpy places.
The 2nd graph still kicks nice, but smoother, and I can drive the open wheelers with it (FA, 98T). Nuances of the road can be felt on both, and this is exactly what the Scoop is killing in my opinion, at least in the T300. I tried Bunga's settings, and although you can feel the bumps, they just don't "kick" the way it's doing without scoop.
And wheel temp measure after 10 min FA drive below 45°C. Did not have a chance for a real long run, but no fading, just perfect.
I was strongly considering getting a Fanatec gear, but after this weekend, my TM will live for a while...
You're right, and i fooled myself making wrong conclusions. (I'll put an EDIT note to me previous post). I compared the graphs again, the "carrier" line is practically exactly the same (very precise and constant driving :D) I got really mislead by the spikes... Now i understand... The changes with PWM and PWMS can hardly be seen in the graphs, but yes, increasing WPS take the spikes away. So skip my "cristal ball reading" from before ;) To feel what changing PWM and PWMS does i must test it by myself... can't be interpeted just by the paper and the video... However, and beside PWM(S), not using SK and SR, instead utilizing the hardware's natural non-linearty to emphasize the road feel and lower forces is a promising idea.
PureMalt77
28-02-2016, 17:18
I would suggest to run with the Audi R8 V10 plus, with stock mechanical setup, at any track. Without PWMS, you may feel what the official guide mean by wheel acceleration, where the movement of the front wheel don't follow what you are doing with your physical steering wheel.
It was mostly good without PWMS in most cars, but it really stood out with the Audi R8 V10 plus. Try turning at different velocity and you'll see what i mean.
You're right, and i was wrong. (I'll put an EDIT note to me previous post). I compared the graphs again, the "carrier" line is practically exactly the same (very precise and constant driving :D) I got really mislead by the spikes... Now i understand... The changes with PWM and PWMS can hardly be seen in the graphs, but yes, increasing WPS take the spikes away. So skip my "cristal ball reading" from before ;) To feel what changing PWM and PWMS does i must test it by myself... can't be interpeted just by the paper and the video...
Interesting point, and next weekend I will give a shot with the R8.
From my testing, PWM+PWMS played a simple role of steering ratio. PWM drives more or less ration and PWMS how non-linear the ratio will be when applying angle to the tires. I might be wrong as I have no way to measure that, but is what it feels! pCars dash actually shows the rotation degree, need to check if after processing (FFB), or actual angle measured at the wheel...
tennenbaum
28-02-2016, 17:31
Interesting point, and next weekend I will give a shot with the R8.
From my testing, PWM+PWMS played a simple role of steering ratio. PWM drives more or less ration and PWMS how non-linear the ratio will be when applying angle to the tires. I might be wrong as I have no way to measure that, but is what it feels! pCars dash actually shows the rotation degree, need to check if after processing (FFB), or actual angle measured at the wheel...
poirqc, may be you can help here. I always thought PWM and PWMS is a tool to correct/compensate an individual drag of the wheel hardware. I didn't expect that PWM(S) would actually scale the degree of rotation, meaning that wheel hardware DOR at a given moment is e.g. 178 and the in-game wheel DOR is e.g. 183, thus changing the steering ratio between hardware wheel (steering) and in-game wheel (steering)? :confused: PureMalt77, is it possible that by introducing an artificial drag to the hardware wheel it feels like changing the steering angle of tires, but basically it just feels like that, while PWM(S) just adds or deducts strength from the original signal?
PureMalt77
28-02-2016, 17:47
poirqc, may be you can help here. I always thought PWM and PWMS is a tool to correct/compensate an individual drag of the wheel hardware. I didn't expect that PWM(S) would actually scale the degree of rotation, meaning that wheel hardware DOR at a given moment is e.g. 178 and the in-game wheel DOR is e.g. 183, thus changing the steering ratio between hardware wheel (steering) and in-game wheel (steering)? :confused: PureMalt77, is it possible that by introducing an artificial drag to the hardware wheel it feels like changing the steering angle of tires, but basically it just feels like that, while PWM(S) just adds or deducts strength from the original signal?
It's possible, I did not raise the bars so high to prove my theory, but what you are saying make sense. Since some say the T300 has practically no drag, "faster moving wheel" creates the impression that is rotating more, just because it requires less strength to rotate it. My next step will be to zero them again...
poirqc posted the following:
PWM / PWMS / WPS(Damping)
FFB wheel construction is very different depending on your wheel's model. When they're not plugged, some will be very free moving and other will be dragged by the wheel's motor. This tool is used to compensate for that. You'll be able to set the behavior of the steering wheel to you taste with that. You want turn ins and turn outs to feel natural to you, where subconsciently, when you turn, it turns at that moment, to the pace you want. Not before, not after.
I'll talk about Per Wheel Movement, Per Wheel Movement Squared and Wheel Position Smoothing as PWM /PWMS / WPS
There's 3 cases where you want to use this tool:
You like the build in drag of the wheel, it's turning as expected
There's some "lag" when you turn, you want more responsiveness
It's too twitchy when you turn, you need to correct your line too quickly
PWM 0/PWMS 0 won't change the default behavior of your steering wheel
PWM positive value/ PWMS negative nalue will give you a slower moving wheel
PWM negative value/ PWMS positive value will give you a faster moving wheel
In both case, you don't want turn ins and turn outs that accelerate. You'll understand if you mess with those values. Most of the time, low values will do the trick.
This is where WPS comes in. Depending on you're whole controller FFB setup, you'll probably need some WPS. The more you put, the less the wheel will oscillate by itself. However, you may lose low torque details at some point. Idealy, you need to find a balance where the wheel doesn't oscillate too much while keeping as much details a possible. Depending on how much smoothing you use within the Car FFB, you may need less WPS because of that.
Krus Control
28-02-2016, 17:52
I've seen you guys discuss PWMS values and oscillations in here and thought I would add this. On my TX any value other than 0 for PWMS produces oscillations in every car. PWM can be adjusted, but PWMS will cause problems for me unless it is at 0. You can achieve the same drag reduction by lowering tire force and compensating with steering gain or per car master scale. This is what I did with my current settings.
poirqc, may be you can help here. I always thought PWM and PWMS is a tool to correct/compensate an individual drag of the wheel hardware. I didn't expect that PWM(S) would actually scale the degree of rotation, meaning that wheel hardware DOR at a given moment is e.g. 178 and the in-game wheel DOR is e.g. 183, thus changing the steering ratio between hardware wheel (steering) and in-game wheel (steering)? :confused: PureMalt77, is it possible that by introducing an artificial drag to the hardware wheel it feels like changing the steering angle of tires, but basically it just feels like that, while PWM(S) just adds or deducts strength from the original signal?
I must go, but quickly:
PWM(S) shouldn't change the DoR. It should help you move accross the DoR slower(more drag) or faster(less drag). With both of them @ 0, The following happends:
As you turn your wheel constantly:
Physical angular velocity VS in game car angular velocity
1 1
1 1
1 1
1 1
1 1
1 1
etc...
PWM without PWMS:
Physical angular velocity VS in game car angular velocity
1 1
1 2
1 3
1 4
1 5
etc...
PWM with PWMS:
Physical angular velocity VS in game car angular velocity
2 2
2 2
2 2
2 2
2 2
etc...
Then i rammed into the language barrier! I'll just go ski now.
Cheers.
PureMalt77
28-02-2016, 18:06
I've seen you guys discuss PWMS values and oscillations in here and thought I would add this. On my TX any value other than 0 for PWMS produces oscillations in every car. PWM can be adjusted, but PWMS will cause problems for me unless it is at 0. You can achieve the same drag reduction by lowering tire force and compensating with steering gain or per car master scale. This is what I did with my current settings.
Well, there is a bit more to it. I'm going for an approach without using Scoop, therefore letting low range forces to shine! Problem is that even with PWMS at zero, I will get oscillation on cars like FA. The parameter which really helped me is WPS.
Krus Control
28-02-2016, 18:11
WPS doesn't completely remove oscillations, but rather changes their frequency. That isn't 100% accurate, but is generally what is going on. It would be more effective to single out Mz for instance as the main cause and use Mz smoothing in just that car. WPS can significantly reduce FFB feel across the entire range and should only be used as a last resort IMO. But I'm sure that it's possible to balance settings to make it work. Still, theoretically at least, this is not the best solution.
Edit: also PWMS isn't the only cause of oscillations. I've had them caused by deadzone removal settings being too high, from having scoop wrong, and with certain settings I've had oscillations that seemed to come from nowhere ( especially in the Lotus 49 and FA). Finding the root cause of the oscillation will help you figure out how to fix it.
PureMalt77
28-02-2016, 18:22
WPS doesn't completely remove oscillations, but rather changes their frequency. That isn't 100% accurate, but is generally what is going on. It would be more effective to single out Mz for instance as the main cause and use Mz smoothing in just that car. WPS can significantly reduce FFB feel across the entire range and should only be used as a last resort IMO. But I'm sure that it's possible to balance settings to make it work. Still, theoretically at least, this is not the best solution.
You've said the magic words! WPS indeed affects the FFB feel as a whole, while Scoops affects only low range forces. To me using WPS produces a steady feel throughout the range, without any knee deciding when it kicks off or not.
And theoretically, because right now I have much more FFB feel then using Scoop, much more feel than I ever had before.
I cannot explains it in any mathematical way, and it might go against the manuals. And I'm sure many here will try and will not like it... But I appreciate the ones here not afraid to try and share their thoughts.
Krus Control
28-02-2016, 18:32
I would say try to isolate the smoothing to just Fx,z, and Mz. Smoothing Fy is generally not the best practice. But if it works for you I won't argue about it. Just that by isolating the smoothing to only what needs it you can improve you feel. Then with cars where there is no problem you can set smoothing off. Just trying to point you in a positive direction.
PureMalt77
28-02-2016, 18:40
The term "Smoothing" on console is not what it really is, actually it´s a Low Pass Filter (on PC - Low Pass), this filter cuts off high frequencies.
There´s a spin-off force "grinding" (high frequency) on Mz and Fx on several cars, the reason I use it.
I would say try to isolate the smoothing to just Fx,z, and Mz. Smoothing Fy is generally not the best practice. But if it works for you I won't argue about it. Just that by isolating the smoothing to only what needs it you can improve you feel. Then with cars where there is no problem you can set smoothing off. Just trying to point you in a positive direction.
I'm using JS Classic settings. The FA for instance has no smoothing on Fy, only .2 on Fx, .1 on Mz. But I don't know what smoothing actually does on consoles, I don't know what JS means with the posting above...
http://pcars.oscarolim.pt/cars/35
tennenbaum
28-02-2016, 18:50
I must go, but quickly:
PWM(S) shouldn't change the DoR. It should help you move accross the DoR slower(more drag) or faster(less drag). With both of them @ 0, The following happends:
As you turn your wheel constantly:
Physical angular velocity VS in game car angular velocity
1 1
1 1
1 1
1 1
1 1
1 1
etc...
PWM without PWMS:
Physical angular velocity VS in game car angular velocity
1 1
1 2
1 3
1 4
1 5
etc...
PWM with PWMS:
Physical angular velocity VS in game car angular velocity
2 2
2 2
2 2
2 2
2 2
etc...
Then i rammed into the language barrier! I'll just go ski now.
Cheers.
as always - pleasure!
makes all sense what you say.
but you see me baffled.
228508
Given what you say - and there is no reason to doubt it - it occurs to me that for very quick moments there are DOR deltas between the physical wheel and the in-game wheel. Which i wasn't aware of at all. Now taking into account that your steering corrections happen very quickly too, voilà: PureMalt77 may have sensed it correctly: Changing PWM(S) changes the FFB feel in a more complex way than just adding a constant drag like a constant layer.
Every time i think i'm done now with my findings and conclusions, now being capable to build my "perfect" setting, a new thing occurs and keeps me away from driving... ;)
Krus Control
28-02-2016, 18:53
You shouldn't do Fxyz/Mz smoothing AND WPS as they are the exact same thing but at different points in the signal chain. Smoothing is complicated, but generally smooths spikes or sharp forces out and lowers frequency for oscillations. But smoothing too high can cause a type of clipping oscillation that locks the wheel with high drag. It doesn't exactly take the place of scoop and is not the ideal method for problem solving. You should try raising Fxyz/Mz smoothing into the 30-40 range before resorting to Full blown WPS. I run with no smoothing of any kind, as this produces a better feel.
I'm using JS Classic settings. The FA for instance has no smoothing on Fy, only .2 on Fx, .1 on Mz. But I don't know what smoothing actually does on consoles, I don't know what JS means with the posting above...
http://pcars.oscarolim.pt/cars/35
I'm using Jack's in-car settings, but with no smoothing. I don't get hardly any oscillation with the FA, a very minor bit on certain tracks, and I mean very minor toward the very top end of speed, which just feel natural to me.
PureMalt77
28-02-2016, 19:00
You shouldn't do Fxyz/Mz smoothing AND WPS as they are the exact same thing but at different points in the signal chain. Smoothing is complicated, but generally smooths spikes or sharp forces out and lowers frequency for oscillations. But smoothing too high can cause a type of clipping oscillation that locks the wheel with high drag. It doesn't exactly take the place of scoop and is not the ideal method for problem solving. You should try raising Fxyz/Mz smoothing into the 30-40 range before resorting to Full blown WPS. I run with no smoothing of any kind, as this produces a better feel.
Thanks KC, will have that in mind for my next battery of tests!
tennenbaum
28-02-2016, 19:05
I would say try to isolate the smoothing to just Fx,z, and Mz. Smoothing Fy is generally not the best practice. But if it works for you I won't argue about it. Just that by isolating the smoothing to only what needs it you can improve you feel. Then with cars where there is no problem you can set smoothing off. Just trying to point you in a positive direction.
Yes, i also think smoothing Fxyzm individually in-cars is better than smoothing the over-all signal at a later stage. Though, poirqc's post made me even doubt that, because the way PWM and PWMS seem to work WPS might not smooth the signal in total as i thought, but rather has a specific effect on PWM(S)'s angular velocity only. Of course that changes somehow the signal in whole too, but then slightly differently than the smoothing with Fxyzm...
The heck, i start feeling the molecules of dust under the mattress of my bed...:crushed:
Krus Control
28-02-2016, 19:16
I think that WPS is a force delivery to negate rather than a force reduction. This would explain why it affects wheel weight. It shouldn't be too bad at lower settings.
GrimeyDog
28-02-2016, 21:49
I must go, but quickly:
PWM(S) shouldn't change the DoR. It should help you move accross the DoR slower(more drag) or faster(less drag). With both of them @ 0, The following happends:
As you turn your wheel constantly:
Physical angular velocity VS in game car angular velocity
1 1
1 1
1 1
1 1
1 1
1 1
etc...
PWM without PWMS:
Physical angular velocity VS in game car angular velocity
1 1
1 2
1 3
1 4
1 5
etc...
PWM with PWMS:
Physical angular velocity VS in game car angular velocity
2 2
2 2
2 2
2 2
2 2
etc...
Then i rammed into the language barrier! I'll just go ski now.
Cheers.
Hmmmm....??? so Does this mean that these 2 settings are the key to getting that Progressively Harder to turn steering??? Ex: the More i turn the wheel from center the harder the wheel will be to turn??? if this is the case then which setting should i adjust???
GrimeyDog
28-02-2016, 22:59
Formula C Retweek 0% Oscillation!!!
https://youtu.be/5aXX_jia0qE
Formula A Retweek... No Oscillation.
https://youtu.be/8B9mOtfNj-I
I never been a big Formula car driver but i could get into it... these things are like riding on rails!!!
No suspension tuning Needed!!! just re adjusted the in car "Fz" "Mz" and "Sop" lat settings and Oscillation Gone:yes:
No it doesnt make it progressively harder to turn. It is a tool to make the wheel drag-free mainly.
You've said the magic words! WPS indeed affects the FFB feel as a whole, while Scoops affects only low range forces. To me using WPS produces a steady feel throughout the range, without any knee deciding when it kicks off or not.
And theoretically, because right now I have much more FFB feel then using Scoop, much more feel than I ever had before.
I cannot explains it in any mathematical way, and it might go against the manuals. And I'm sure many here will try and will not like it... But I appreciate the ones here not afraid to try and share their thoughts.
Yes, i also think smoothing Fxyzm individually in-cars is better than smoothing the over-all signal at a later stage. Though, poirqc's post made me even doubt that, because the way PWM and PWMS seem to work WPS might not smooth the signal in total as i thought, but rather has a specific effect on PWM(S)'s angular velocity only. Of course that changes somehow the signal in whole too, but then slightly differently than the smoothing with Fxyzm...
The heck, i start feeling the molecules of dust under the mattress of my bed...:crushed:
Hmmmm....??? so Does this mean that these 2 settings are the key to getting that Progressively Harder to turn steering??? Ex: the More i turn the wheel from center the harder the wheel will be to turn??? if this is the case then which setting should i adjust???
3 Things here:
Scoops affects low forces and high forces. The tamer the "low" forces are, the sharper the "high" forces will climb to 100%. Scoops is a no wrong setting really. The worst it can do is wash out low forces and make taking curbs under heavy load rattly. But besides that, it's user taste.
Conceptually, Per Wheel Movement should help the wheel movement. Let's say that turning the wheel by itself, you need 1 Nm of torque to turn it. PWM(S) will apply that force to help the wheel get itself moving. They key part here is to have the in game wheel follow you real wheels movement all the time. They need to be synced. The in game wheel shouldn't accelerate faster than the real one.
I've seen 3 ways of settings Per Wheel Movement. 1 official and 2 from forum users:
From Jack's post (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?22938-Jack-Spade-FFB-Tweaker-Files&p=1241078&viewfull=1#post1241078) and the official guide(Both of them are the same):
PWMS is about half of PWM, with the inversed polarity
B. Goto Controller FFB Calibration and set Per Wheel Movement to a negative value, and
Per Wheel Movement squared to a smaller positive value. The negative value
provides anti*drag to counter the wheel drag. The positive squared value provides a
sort of safety net to keep fast wheel movements from feeling weird, or worse,
accelerating the wheel.
C. Test the wheel on track by jarring it at different speeds. Keep adjusting the values
until the wheel is very free moving but never accelerates, and slowly comes to a stop,
at all jarring speeds. For this wheel I came up with Per Wheel Movement at *0.19 and
Per Wheel Movement Squared at 0.10.
PWMS is about the same as PWM, with inversed polarity
GTSimms way's (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?22938-Jack-Spade-FFB-Tweaker-Files&p=1147221&viewfull=1#post1147221). In the videos, the movement seems to follow accordingly, but he's moving slowly(above 10 Mph tho). I wonder how it feels when moving normaly.
PWMS stay at 0, set PWM as you want.
Just as Krus Control just mentionned:
I've seen you guys discuss PWMS values and oscillations in here and thought I would add this. On my TX any value other than 0 for PWMS produces oscillations in every car. PWM can be adjusted, but PWMS will cause problems for me unless it is at 0. You can achieve the same drag reduction by lowering tire force and compensating with steering gain or per car master scale. This is what I did with my current settings.
PWM(S) is a peculiar beast. It's really hardware dependant, coupled with how much a user want to remove/add. However, even if WPS and PWM(S) are in the same section, they may not be directly related.
FFB smoothing may not be the devil we think it is. I'll just link someone who explained it well (http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.php/19034-Guide-Optimal-FFB-settings-for-rFactor-2-The-key-to-being-in-the-Zone-D). As other tools, it's better to use the least possible. But just a tad can be helpful.
Something to keep in mind especially if sharing numbers is that Steering Gain has a significant effect on your PWM settings - With Steering Gain at 2.00 you'll get double the amount of "anti-drag" force.
Something to keep in mind especially if sharing numbers is that Steering Gain has a significant effect on your PWM settings - With Steering Gain at 2.00 you'll get double the amount of "anti-drag" force.
Indeed. Nice heads up.
Regardless of how much PWM(S) is needed, the get a desired drag, against the whole FFB, the important part is to not have acceleration when turning the wheel.
Krus Control
29-02-2016, 03:41
PWM and PWMS aren't the only way to control wheel drag and get a good feel. You don't have to adjust these settings from zero to get your wheel drag right. However, they are great tools for taking whatever setup you have working and reducing or adding drag without affecting the overall feel. And when sharing numbers for steering gain or any gain setting you must always be thinking about the entire signal chain (tire force, Mxyz/Mz, master scale, FFB master etc.) and how each number affects the others. A good feel doesn't come from one number, but from everything being right.
Koza_Nostra
29-02-2016, 09:41
I use 1 of these mate to hold my tablet in place where ever i want it.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00O8SS1A6?redirect=true&ref_=s9_cxhsh_co_g147_i5
Thanks, I will order one of these today
PureMalt77
29-02-2016, 10:32
3 Things here:
Scoops affects low forces and high forces. The tamer the "low" forces are, the sharper the "high" forces will climb to 100%. Scoops is a no wrong setting really. The worst it can do is wash out low forces and make taking curbs under heavy load rattly. But besides that, it's user taste.
PWM(S) is a peculiar beast. It's really hardware dependant, coupled with how much a user want to remove/add. However, even if WPS and PWM(S) are in the same section, they may not be directly related.
FFB smoothing may not be the devil we think it is. I'll just link someone who explained it well (http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.php/19034-Guide-Optimal-FFB-settings-for-rFactor-2-The-key-to-being-in-the-Zone-D). As other tools, it's better to use the least possible. But just a tad can be helpful.
Thanks again for a very clarifying explanation.
Since I've got this game, I always used Scoop. Have tried many people's settings, calculators and so on. And you described exactly what I feel is happening: washing out low forces too much. Maybe I just never found the best setting for it with my wheel, but as far as I remember, I tried pretty much everything here. I just think the game is good without them.
PWM(S) is indeed a beast, and you just gave me the formula: measure the actual wheel movement with the in-game wheel, and they need to match, no acceleration. My wrong assumption was to believe that they had anything to do with the removal of the Scoops, so I will run a check on that next weekend (right now only using -0.02 of PWM). Maybe they can be even zeroed again without affecting the rest, only tests will tell.
And to smoothing: in fact, after removing the scoops (FFB=100, TF=70, JS Classic in-car settings), I almost need no smoothing (T300 defaults to 0.04). By setting to just 0.01-0.02 is enough to drop all the spikes from the chart and a car like the RUF-GT3 is perfectly fine with it. What I agree here (tkx Krus Control) is that by increasing it in globals, I'm affecting all cars, and I could apply that same smoothing at Fxyz in-car settings to attack only the "problematic" cars.
At the same time, 0.10 WMS tames the FFB much less than any Scoop I've tried before, at least with my wheel. My current setup was based from Bunga's posting, and his settings are excellent and very similar to what I tried before, but I always thought that a bit was missing. In order to raise low forces, I had to increase too much power, which was than either making me clip or forcing my little motor too much. There is also a personal preference here. I like stronger forces, but need to cope with what my wheel can take, and I think I'm at 95% where I want to be!
Don't get me wrong here, I'm not trying to enforce what is right or wrong. :D
Quite the opposite, all this valuable input is helping me get that final 5%!
I just have been very "passive" in this thread in terms of any real contribution, and just test what others post. Now I finally believe to have found something worth mentioning, but at the end of the day, you go with whatever makes you enjoy the game :eagerness:
Bunga412
29-02-2016, 10:42
Don't get me wrong here, I'm not trying to enforce what is right or wrong. :D
Quite the opposite, all this valuable input is helping me get that final 5%!
I just have been very "passive" in this thread in terms of any real contribution, and just test what others post. Now I finally believe to have found something worth mentioning, but at the end of the day, you go with whatever makes you enjoy the game :eagerness:
Couldn't of said it any better. That's exactly how I feel too champ.
Thanks again for a very clarifying explanation.
Since I've got this game, I always used Scoop. Have tried many people's settings, calculators and so on. And you described exactly what I feel is happening: washing out low forces too much. Maybe I just never found the best setting for it with my wheel, but as far as I remember, I tried pretty much everything here. I just think the game is good without them.
PWM(S) is indeed a beast, and you just gave me the formula: measure the actual wheel movement with the in-game wheel, and they need to match, no acceleration. My wrong assumption was to believe that they had anything to do with the removal of the Scoops, so I will run a check on that next weekend (right now only using -0.02 of PWM). Maybe they can be even zeroed again without affecting the rest, only tests will tell.
And to smoothing: in fact, after removing the scoops (FFB=100, TF=70, JS Classic in-car settings), I almost need no smoothing (T300 defaults to 0.04). By setting to just 0.01-0.02 is enough to drop all the spikes from the chart and a car like the RUF-GT3 is perfectly fine with it. What I agree here (tkx Krus Control) is that by increasing it in globals, I'm affecting all cars, and I could apply that same smoothing at Fxyz in-car settings to attack only the "problematic" cars.
At the same time, 0.10 WMS tames the FFB much less than any Scoop I've tried before, at least with my wheel. My current setup was based from Bunga's posting, and his settings are excellent and very similar to what I tried before, but I always thought that a bit was missing. In order to raise low forces, I had to increase too much power, which was than either making me clip or forcing my little motor too much. There is also a personal preference here. I like stronger forces, but need to cope with what my wheel can take, and I think I'm at 95% where I want to be!
Don't get me wrong here, I'm not trying to enforce what is right or wrong. :D
Quite the opposite, all this valuable input is helping me get that final 5%!
I just have been very "passive" in this thread in terms of any real contribution, and just test what others post. Now I finally believe to have found something worth mentioning, but at the end of the day, you go with whatever makes you enjoy the game :eagerness:
puremalt and bunga412,
Can you guys both do me a favor and try turning down the ffb master to 75 and try your settings. You should be clipping quite a bit with those settings. Problem is you wont see it with the ffb master set that high. The other thing I recently figured out is clipping can feel like road detail especially in corners covering up cornering force.The lateral forces. Even if you don't turn it down all the way to 75 id expect youre getting some at the wheel clipping. Wps seems to really help feel the lower forces on our wheels when you turn it down. Just some thoughts.
PureMalt77
29-02-2016, 13:31
puremalt and bunga412,
Can you guys both do me a favor and try turning down the ffb master to 75 and try your settings. You should be clipping quite a bit with those settings. Problem is you wont see it with the ffb master set that high. The other thing I recently figured out is clipping can feel like road detail especially in corners covering up cornering force.The lateral forces. Even if you don't turn it down all the way to 75 id expect youre getting some at the wheel clipping. Wps seems to really help feel the lower forces on our wheels when you turn it down. Just some thoughts.
hi morpwr, sure I will try...
But to that I have one question: if the FFB chart never reaches the top, why would I be clipping?
I understand that the global FFB is not part of the telemetry graph, therefore by setting the GM FFB < 100 allows you to have a safe zone for forces above the visual peak. Or do I get something fundamentally wrong here?:confused:
tennenbaum
29-02-2016, 13:32
puremalt and bunga412,
Can you guys both do me a favor and try turning down the ffb master to 75 and try your settings. You should be clipping quite a bit with those settings. Problem is you wont see it with the ffb master set that high. The other thing I recently figured out is clipping can feel like road detail especially in corners covering up cornering force.The lateral forces. Even if you don't turn it down all the way to 75 id expect youre getting some at the wheel clipping. Wps seems to really help feel the lower forces on our wheels when you turn it down. Just some thoughts.
Now that you are mentioning it - yes by the values of PureMalt's settings (especially due to RAC at 0.85) it's likely that he gets into the >75 range of the T300 not only with the spikes but also with the snake-line (body / carrier). I looked at the graphs in the video again, which seems to confirm, that you're (PureMalt) with 10% - 15% of your forces in the potential clipping range of the T300. (Wheel clipping you don't see in the hud.)
It'd be interesting to hear what you think when you test it. However, at first - before you adapt to it - you will of course miss around 25% wheel weight. You may perceive that more as a disadvantage than as an advantage of getting a cleaner T300 wheel behavior.
Originally Posted by PureMalt77
hi morpwr, sure I will try...
But to that I have one question: if the FFB chart never reaches the top, why would I be clipping?
I understand that the global FFB is not part of the telemetry graph, therefore by setting the GM FFB < 100 allows you to have a safe zone for forces above the visual peak. Or do I get something fundamentally wrong here?
I guess morpwr will be back with an answer quickly;)
In the meanwhile:
Q:...if the FFB chart never reaches the top, why would I be clipping?
A: Because the signal that is not clipping in the HUD box can clip in the wheel - if FFB is set to 100. Because what's 85% in the HUD is 10% too much for the T300 wheel.
You're right, with your settings your curve doesn't reach the top = 100% of the telemetry box. But the body of your curve goes higher than 75%. Actually into the range 85%. So, these 10%, in combination with your FFB 100 (as JS recommends), fall into the range > 0.75 (75) of the T300, where the wheel starts to produce clipping/saturation artefacts.
In other words, imagine your settings with 0.85 body x 1.00 FFB lead to a "voltage" for example of 0.85 V. These 0.85 Volt reach the T300. But the elektro-mechanical construction of the T300 produces the maximum torque that the wheel is capable of already with 0.75 Volt. So the extra 0.1 Volt (thus 0.85 Volt) permanently "overdrive" the wheel.
As a result, all your values higher than 0.75 will be treated as 0.75 but in a way that the wheel is permanently saturated, which means here mechanical clipping. So the "upper" 10%* of your FFB, meaning the values between 75% and 85% will be flattened to 75% - as strange as it sounds. So every unaltered signal between 75% and 85% will translated into full wheel torque - with no more differentiation between 75% and 85%. So the fact that you don't max out the full 100% in your telemetry box doesn't mean that there is not a part of your signal already in the clipping range of the T300.
*It may look as if just 10% to clip at the stage of the hardware isn't much of a deal. Not exactly. Since RAC compresses some of the lower forces, it's not only the range of 75% - 85% that might clip. As a matter of fact RAC is lifting indirectly the forces below 75% into the clipping zone as well.
I understand that the global FFB is not part of the telemetry graph, therefore by setting the GM FFB < 100 allows you to have a safe zone for forces above the visual peak.
Yes. By setting GM FFB <100 you reduce the strength of the signal that goes to the wheel. Look at the GM FFB like the volume knob after the telemetry measure point. It's a simple linear scaler. So by reducing GM FFB <100 you indeed create a "Safe Zone" for forces above the visual peak. The misunderstanding that might have occurred: The game doesn't deliver values >1 (100%) at the point of the hud measurement. (in my example 1 Volt is max that can be produced). Insofar you can't create a Safe Zone for values that don't exist. On the other hand, yes, by every click you move FM FFB lower towards the .75 (75) the more you reduce that part of your curve that might be higher than 0.75 and therefore being into the clipping zone of the wheel.
For clarification: Before the signal reaches the RAG/RAB/RAC module and/or Softclipper Module the values can be higher than 1.00. I call it the "invisible headroom". But then RAC or SC (or both together) normalize the signal into the "normalized" signal corridor of 0.00 - 1.00. Either by setting RAC and/or SC at suitable values, or - with the wrong values - "normalizing" to 1.00 just happens by clipping. (It was said before: a signal that got "clipped" at 1.00 can be reduced by SG to e.g. 0.70, but still the "clip" itself remains, just sitting then at the level of 0.7. It's also possible that with the wrong settings of SCHI and SCFO you get saturation (almost the same as clipping, just not that harsh) at a level e.g. of 0.60. If you scale such 0.60 up to e.g. 0.85 with the help of SG, you just lift the saturation (curve flatness) to a higher level...
The longer i bubble... May be the sketch helps... Please excuse my sloppy handwriting.
228541
NB: I didn't draw "your" curve properly. Your curve goes maximum to aprox. 0.85, while in my drawing it goes up to 0.95. But the principle stays the same... Just lower the curve 0.1 by imagination, there is still a part of it in the clipping zone of the wheel.
NB: I didn't draw any "spikes" in the picture. I just showed the "body", the "snake-line". So spikes that come on top of it are pretty sure in the clipping zone. (But what i said before, i think if spikes clip it's not a big thing.)
NB: The voltage example is just to make it clearer. The strength of the signal is coded in a digital value. Though the effects of clipping or saturation are similar in the digital world as in the analogue realm.
NB: Because of his his "FFB = 100 advise" JS tries to keep the "body" of the FFB mainly below 0.75.
To be more precise: IMO he actually allows the "body" to be partly in the saturation zone (actually what you do too). I assume he wanted to avoid that his settings could be perceived a bit too light... Not enough wheel weight. So he allowed a compromise in regard to the pureness of the signal. He also knows that with his particular settings of Fxyzm the part of the forces that may lead to a "body" > 0.75 are mostly caused by a combination of Fx and Fz. Both forces make the feel lively but are not this critical to the steering. So when these forces get clipped or saturated it doesn't really compromise the precision of steering. And he always was more focused on PC and the CSW wheels anyway, which might be less critical than the lowfi wheels. And he uses this smart trick and allows the spikes to be higher, thus reach into the clipping zone on purpose. But since a spike / needle doesn't change much its form & function when you cut off its tip, wheel-clipping due to spikes doesn't corrupt the steering feeling... I think JS is dealing very smartly with the complexity of the FFB system to get out of it as much as possible...
So IMO just keep the body out of the >.75 zone at wheel level. You can do that by
a.) keeping the body below .75 at the stage of the hud, while FFB is set to 100, or
b.) keeping the body in the 1.00, while FFB is set to 75. or
c.) keeping the body max. at 0.866, while FFB is set to 86 ;-)
With a.) spikes >0.75 get clipped by the wheel.
With b.) spikes > 1.00 get clipped in the game's signal chain.
The spike clipping effect to the overall FFB feeling is IMO in both cases more or less the same.
However, it's possible that JS found out that clipping of spikes on wheel level is better than in the signal chain !?
hi morpwr, sure I will try...
But to that I have one question: if the FFB chart never reaches the top, why would I be clipping?
I understand that the global FFB is not part of the telemetry graph, therefore by setting the GM FFB < 100 allows you to have a safe zone for forces above the visual peak. Or do I get something fundamentally wrong here?:confused:
The wheel can clip and you wont see it. Basically it cant reproduce the force.
After hour of testing I've come to the conclusion PWM-0. 14 / PWMS +0.07 on my Fanatec 911 GT2 is alot better than DRI 3 .
This wheel naturally has lots of drag and prior to using the pwm's i thought DRI 3 was adequate .
I've left all my other setting as is ( Thanks Jack ) except i increased my DRF to 0.02 and Tyre force to 80 and reduced Steering Gain to 110 .
PureMalt77
29-02-2016, 14:04
Thx for the explanation!
I thought that the T300 can actually take the 100%, but issue being, after a while it will enter the safe-mode and forcedly reduce it's power (the fading issue).
So, I would need to drive a long run to actually see if this 85% average force is too much and experience and fading... or reduce the GM FFB to a value just to keep the "average" line in the 75% range... say, around 15% less? Probably 75 FFB would bring too much down, but 85 FFB maybe?
I will try diverse values and keep you posted...
GrimeyDog
29-02-2016, 15:23
Its all Getting complicated again....I just use the GM FFB to set the at the wheel Strength that i want and forget it:yes:
GM FFB will Not show in the FFB Graph... This Fact is indicative that it should be used and set only for the Final at the wheel Strength that works for you and should Not be Part of the FFB Tweek... But it should be the Last adjustment to the Tweek.
Conclusion: Because GM FFB Is Not part of the FFB chain its just the Final adjustment/Volume control for at the Wheel FFB power.
I cant figure out why the GM FFB 100 statement has Never been Retracted even though it has been proven to be False teaching Many times Many ways....IMO GM FFB 100 has been used to compensate and Cover up a Flaw in the Tweek that 100 GM FFB must be used... When you Look at the FFB PCars Has 3 FFB systems that Need to be set as 1 ...1) TF=Wheel weight, 2) Relative/In Car FFB= FFB Effects Strength... Those 2 FFB systems are blended as 1 with Steering Gain. 3) GM FFB= Final at the Wheel FFB Strength adjustment/Volume control.
IMO if the GM FFB must be 100 Theory would be Retracted it would Make Tweeking FFB easyer for Most people that are still Holding on to this idea to get a Clearer understanding of how to best maximise their FFB settings.
It really Helps to understand the FFB better when you look at it as 3 different Power output Systems that have to be Balanced to work as 1.... Too Much FFB power from 1 will throw the entire system outta wack... its all about Balance.... IMO No part of the system Needs to be set above 100 if the other parts are balanced right. JMT
Summation GM FFB is Not Needed Nor Recomended Console or PC! JMO
Edit: a Clear understanding of GM FFB would also clear up alot of the wheel Drag issues also as the Extra power applied to the wheel helps to create drag.
Schumi01
29-02-2016, 15:34
After hour of testing I've come to the conclusion PWM 14 / PWMS 7 on my Fanatec 911 GT2 is alot better than DRI 3 .
This wheel naturally has lots of drag and prior to using the pwm's i thought DRI 3 was adequate .
I've left all my other setting as is ( Thanks Jack ) except i increased my DRF to 0.02 and Tyre force to 80 and reduced Steering Gain to 110 .
Can you post some screenshots of your settings?
Thx for the explanation!
I thought that the T300 can actually take the 100%, but issue being, after a while it will enter the safe-mode and forcedly reduce it's power (the fading issue).
So, I would need to drive a long run to actually see if this 85% average force is too much and experience and fading... or reduce the GM FFB to a value just to keep the "average" line in the 75% range... say, around 15% less? Probably 75 FFB would bring too much down, but 85 FFB maybe?
I will try diverse values and keep you posted...
That's not the only reason thrustmaster doesn't recommend it. Did you see the response from thrustmaster in the tx forum for xbox? Everytime I tried anything over 75 it felt grainy and rough to me. Then you have to turn down the ffb settings to cover that up which makes it feel flat. At least that's what I found. Its also much more difficult to know when youre actually clipping going that route.
After hour of testing I've come to the conclusion PWM 14 / PWMS 7 on my Fanatec 911 GT2 is alot better than DRI 3 .
This wheel naturally has lots of drag and prior to using the pwm's i thought DRI 3 was adequate .
I've left all my other setting as is ( Thanks Jack ) except i increased my DRF to 0.02 and Tyre force to 80 and reduced Steering Gain to 110 .
Just to be sure, are you using PWM -0,14 / PWMS 0,07? Or both of them with the same polarity?
Thanks,
Summation GM FFB is Not Needed Nor Recomended Console or PC! JMO
When i did some tests about GM FFB (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?35147-Baseline-Wheel-FFB-Values-Google-Sheet-amp-FCM-Universal&p=1181984&viewfull=1#post1181984), it produced better results when using the windows drivers instead of the game master FFB to lower the signal.
All in all it was pretty close. However, since we can control the device via the drivers, it makes more sense to do it there on a PC, from my pov.
What's actually more important is to have fun while driving! :cool:
tennenbaum
29-02-2016, 18:05
Its all Getting complicated again....I just use the GM FFB to set the at the wheel Strength that i want and forget it:yes:
GM FFB will Not show in the FFB Graph... This Fact is indicative that it should be used and set only for the Final at the wheel Strength that works for you and should Not be Part of the FFB Tweek... But it should be the Last adjustment to the Tweek.
Conclusion: Because GM FFB Is Not part of the FFB chain its just the Final adjustment/Volume control for at the Wheel FFB power.
I cant figure out why the GM FFB 100 statement has Never been Retracted even though it has been proven to be False teaching Many times Many ways....IMO GM FFB 100 has been used to compensate and Cover up a Flaw in the Tweek that 100 GM FFB must be used... When you Look at the FFB PCars Has 3 FFB systems that Need to be set as 1 ...1) TF=Wheel weight, 2) Relative/In Car FFB= FFB Effects Strength... Those 2 FFB systems are blended as 1 with Steering Gain. 3) GM FFB= Final at the Wheel FFB Strength adjustment/Volume control.
IMO if the GM FFB must be 100 Theory would be Retracted it would Make Tweeking FFB easyer for Most people that are still Holding on to this idea to get a Clearer understanding of how to best maximise their FFB settings.
It really Helps to understand the FFB better when you look at it as 3 different Power output Systems that have to be Balanced to work as 1.... Too Much FFB power from 1 will throw the entire system outta wack... its all about Balance.... IMO No part of the system Needs to be set above 100 if the other parts are balanced right. JMT
Summation GM FFB is Not Needed Nor Recomended Console or PC! JMO
Edit: a Clear understanding of GM FFB would also clear up alot of the wheel Drag issues also as the Extra power applied to the wheel helps to create drag.
yep. the FFB 100 advise causes a lot of confusion.
yet, some use it without its disadvantages, because they know exactly what they do. i know my theory about introducing clipping intentionally (but only spikes) doesn't help to make things more comprehensive. But let's be honest, all the settings of the guys with the settings (as yours) which found fans and followers are good, because they are quite "refined" and elaborated - even if it's not necessarily obvious on first sight. bmanics is special, as yours and Jacks' is. Each in its own way. your setting is extraordinary too and utilizes clipping of spikes in a very smart way as well (imo).
However, you're fully right, using GM FFB simply as the volume knob makes totally sense. (For example me, i mostly use FFB with 55 - 65, otherwise the wheel gets to heavy for my taste.) But even with the volume knob picture you should know what happens when you get higher than 75 with the T300 on consoles - but only if you used the full 100% in the HUD before... Again it gets complicated... Some things are as complicated as they are and can't be simplified no more... ;-) ...Didn't somebody propose to collect for a PS4 for Jack so he puts the FFB 100 to bed...:D
Summation GM FFB is Not Needed Nor Recomended Console or PC! JMO
However, you're fully right, using GM FFB simply as the volume knob makes totally sense. (For example me, i mostly use FFB with 55 - 65, otherwise the wheel gets to heavy for my taste.) But even with the volume knob picture you should know what happens when you get higher than 75 with the T300 on consoles - but only if you used the full 100% in the HUD before... Again it gets complicated... Some things are as complicated as they are and can't be simplified no more... ;-) ...Didn't somebody propose to collect for a PS4 for Jack so he puts the FFB 100 to bed...:D
Never had a problem with it on my T300, and don't have any with the CSW-v2. In fact, the only time I was in the rabbit hole with FFB tuning was from the time I bought my CSW-v2 up until a few weeks ago, when I started using Jack's settings. When I was using my T300, I was happy with my FFB setting and was done tuning. I was running FF/TF at 100/65 (obviously with other global adjustments). Jack's globals use a similar balance 100/75. During my time in the rabbit hole, I was running FF/TF at 50/100, and was never able to find a setting that truly liked. They weren't terrible, and some were quite good. But between them all, I wasn't in love with any of them. I've tried Jack's globals, adjusting the FF/TF balance in favor of FF. Personally, I don't like it.
Are there ways to put too much power to wheel favoring FF? Sure. Are there ways to avoid it? Yes. Are there ways to put too much power to wheel favoring TF? Sure, and there are ways to avoid it. So, take your pick, based on your personal preference, and just make sure you're not overtaxing the wheel. It really is that simple. There's no right or wrong. It's just a preference. :)
Now that you are mentioning it - yes by the values of PureMalt's settings (especially due to RAC at 0.85) it's likely that he gets into the >75 range of the T300 not only with the spikes but also with the snake-line (body / carrier). I looked at the graphs in the video again, which seems to confirm, that you're (PureMalt) with 10% - 15% of your forces in the potential clipping range of the T300. (Wheel clipping you don't see in the hud.)
It'd be interesting to hear what you think when you test it. However, at first - before you adapt to it - you will of course miss around 25% wheel weight. You may perceive that more as a disadvantage than as an advantage of getting a cleaner T300 wheel behavior.
I guess morpwr will be back with an answer quickly;)
In the meanwhile:
Q:...if the FFB chart never reaches the top, why would I be clipping?
A: Because the signal that is not clipping in the HUD box can clip in the wheel - if FFB is set to 100. Because what's 85% in the HUD is 10% too much for the T300 wheel.
You're right, with your settings your curve doesn't reach the top = 100% of the telemetry box. But the body of your curve goes higher than 75%. Actually into the range 85%. So, these 10%, in combination with your FFB 100 (as JS recommends), fall into the range > 0.75 (75) of the T300, where the wheel starts to produce clipping/saturation artefacts.
In other words, imagine your settings with 0.85 body x 1.00 FFB lead to a "voltage" for example of 0.85 V. These 0.85 Volt reach the T300. But the elektro-mechanical construction of the T300 produces the maximum torque that the wheel is capable of already with 0.75 Volt. So the extra 0.1 Volt (thus 0.85 Volt) permanently "overdrive" the wheel.
As a result, all your values higher than 0.75 will be treated as 0.75 but in a way that the wheel is permanently saturated, which means here mechanical clipping. So the "upper" 10%* of your FFB, meaning the values between 75% and 85% will be flattened to 75% - as strange as it sounds. So every unaltered signal between 75% and 85% will translated into full wheel torque - with no more differentiation between 75% and 85%. So the fact that you don't max out the full 100% in your telemetry box doesn't mean that there is not a part of your signal already in the clipping range of the T300.
*It may look as if just 10% to clip at the stage of the hardware isn't much of a deal. Not exactly. Since RAC compresses some of the lower forces, it's not only the range of 75% - 85% that might clip. As a matter of fact RAC is lifting indirectly the forces below 75% into the clipping zone as well.
I understand that the global FFB is not part of the telemetry graph, therefore by setting the GM FFB < 100 allows you to have a safe zone for forces above the visual peak.
Yes. By setting GM FFB <100 you reduce the strength of the signal that goes to the wheel. Look at the GM FFB like the volume knob after the telemetry measure point. It's a simple linear scaler. So by reducing GM FFB <100 you indeed create a "Safe Zone" for forces above the visual peak. The misunderstanding that might have occurred: The game doesn't deliver values >1 (100%) at the point of the hud measurement. (in my example 1 Volt is max that can be produced). Insofar you can't create a Safe Zone for values that don't exist. On the other hand, yes, by every click you move FM FFB lower towards the .75 (75) the more you reduce that part of your curve that might be higher than 0.75 and therefore being into the clipping zone of the wheel.
For clarification: Before the signal reaches the RAG/RAB/RAC module and/or Softclipper Module the values can be higher than 1.00. I call it the "invisible headroom". But then RAC or SC (or both together) normalize the signal into the "normalized" signal corridor of 0.00 - 1.00. Either by setting RAC and/or SC at suitable values, or - with the wrong values - "normalizing" to 1.00 just happens by clipping. (It was said before: a signal that got "clipped" at 1.00 can be reduced by SG to e.g. 0.70, but still the "clip" itself remains, just sitting then at the level of 0.7. It's also possible that with the wrong settings of SCHI and SCFO you get saturation (almost the same as clipping, just not that harsh) at a level e.g. of 0.60. If you scale such 0.60 up to e.g. 0.85 with the help of SG, you just lift the saturation (curve flatness) to a higher level...
The longer i bubble... May be the sketch helps... Please excuse my sloppy handwriting.
228541
NB: I didn't draw "your" curve properly. Your curve goes maximum to aprox. 0.85, while in my drawing it goes up to 0.95. But the principle stays the same... Just lower the curve 0.1 by imagination, there is still a part of it in the clipping zone of the wheel.
NB: I didn't draw any "spikes" in the picture. I just showed the "body", the "snake-line". So spikes that come on top of it are pretty sure in the clipping zone. (But what i said before, i think if spikes clip it's not a big thing.)
NB: The voltage example is just to make it clearer. The strength of the signal is coded in a digital value. Though the effects of clipping or saturation are similar in the digital world as in the analogue realm.
NB: Because of his his "FFB = 100 advise" JS tries to keep the "body" of the FFB mainly below 0.75.
To be more precise: IMO he actually allows the "body" to be partly in the saturation zone (actually what you do too). I assume he wanted to avoid that his settings could be perceived a bit too light... Not enough wheel weight. So he allowed a compromise in regard to the pureness of the signal. He also knows that with his particular settings of Fxyzm the part of the forces that may lead to a "body" > 0.75 are mostly caused by a combination of Fx and Fz. Both forces make the feel lively but are not this critical to the steering. So when these forces get clipped or saturated it doesn't really compromise the precision of steering. And he always was more focused on PC and the CSW wheels anyway, which might be less critical than the lowfi wheels. And he uses this smart trick and allows the spikes to be higher, thus reach into the clipping zone on purpose. But since a spike / needle doesn't change much its form & function when you cut off its tip, wheel-clipping due to spikes doesn't corrupt the steering feeling... I think JS is dealing very smartly with the complexity of the FFB system to get out of it as much as possible...
So IMO just keep the body out of the >.75 zone at wheel level. You can do that by
a.) keeping the body below .75 at the stage of the hud, while FFB is set to 100, or
b.) keeping the body in the 1.00, while FFB is set to 75. or
c.) keeping the body max. at 0.866, while FFB is set to 86 ;-)
With a.) spikes >0.75 get clipped by the wheel.
With b.) spikes > 1.00 get clipped in the game's signal chain.
The spike clipping effect to the overall FFB feeling is IMO in both cases more or less the same.
However, it's possible that JS found out that clipping of spikes on wheel level is better than in the signal chain !?
I think your last statement might be correct. I forget who said you were better moving up to clipping than down but I do think its a better approach at this point. I was shocked at how far I turned gain down and still had noticeable clipping. Granted only really high forces now but still clipping. Thing is at least with the t300 clipping can be felt as weird road noise. Noticable especially in fast sweeping corners. At this point I guess I would call it electrical garbage which turns into ffb garbage.lol Because it didn't make a obvious flat line doesn't mean it didn't clip which is were I think a lot of people fall into the trap including myself. I'm sure many would be shocked how far they would have to turn something down before most of the clipping actually went away. Which would allow them to turn the ffb master up for wheel weight.
tennenbaum
29-02-2016, 21:37
I think your last statement might be correct. I forget who said you were better moving up to clipping than down but I do think its a better approach at this point. I was shocked at how far I turned gain down and still had noticeable clipping. Granted only really high forces now but still clipping. Thing is at least with the t300 clipping can be felt as weird road noise. Noticable especially in fast sweeping corners. At this point I guess I would call it electrical garbage which turns into ffb garbage.lol Because it didn't make a obvious flat line doesn't mean it didn't clip which is were I think a lot of people fall into the trap including myself. I'm sure many would be shocked how far they would have to turn something down before most of the clipping actually went away. Which would allow them to turn the ffb master up for wheel weight.
indeed it's garbage/road noise!... point is, it feels lively while at the same time high saturations create heavy wheels - which most people prefer.
The only way to get back to the pure feeling is to switch off the RAG/RAB/RAC module...
People should just turn it off, while keeping everything else the same. Then they would realize what's all about...
Then it gets obvious how much of the "pure" signal got compressed (soft limited) and altered.
The problem is, that strong compression is almost as worse as clipping. The thing is actually simple: Every time clipping happens, the clipping doesn't only cause flatlining but also creates "garbage" the moment a curve gets cut, leading to an edge in the curve. Problem at the edge (curve is cut to flat) the digital quantization gets a hickup... But saturation (same as clipping but without the edges that cause digital garbage) leads to numbness too (no differentiation), which isn't much better than clipping.
RAG/RAB/RAC is like sugar, peper and salt... it takes a while to get rid of it and then getting the sensation of the unaltered details. It's a very personal choice. Some like it hard, hot, spicy and over the top, some like it soft and gentle... And - that is the paradox of it, both feel great to the individual and with both approaches you can race fast.
As soon as i get back behind the wheel i'll try to do the "pure" way... (granted, people will find the settings terrible..., lifeless, numb, too light ;-) But on a more serious side: The problem with the "purer" approaches is the lightness of the wheel while going straight and the small forces when turning in, plus less road feel in general...
i don't wanna sound too "Bob Marley" (as bmanic, or was is morpwr?, once said it), but as much as we love to dig into the "rabbit whole" (me first ;-) as stunning it is still to realize how different settings and perceptions can be. (Hhm, I'm just curious to see how Asseto Corso will feel "right out of the box"...)
I guess we would be also surprised how different the driving feels even between the formula 1 cars of the different teams...
Just to be sure, are you using PWM -0,14 / PWMS 0,07? Or both of them with the same polarity?
Thanks,
When i did some tests about GM FFB (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?35147-Baseline-Wheel-FFB-Values-Google-Sheet-amp-FCM-Universal&p=1181984&viewfull=1#post1181984), it produced better results when using the windows drivers instead of the game master FFB to lower the signal.
All in all it was pretty close. However, since we can control the device via the drivers, it makes more sense to do it there on a PC, from my pov.
What's actually more important is to have fun while driving! :cool:
Sorry my bad .
Yep PWM-0.14 PWMS +0.07
Rabbit Hole. I fell down that hole today and five hours later I crawled out dazed and confused.
tennenbaum Do you have your numbers posted anywhere? I went down the hole and tested various settings today and noticed I did not have any from you. Agree your numbers could be hot and spicy. I may prefer mild and bland. But variety is the spice of life.
Your help would be appreciated.
Can you post some screenshots of your settings?
http://pcars.oscarolim.pt/wheel-settings/browse/ps4-7/163
Hope this helps =)
tennenbaum
29-02-2016, 23:36
Rabbit Hole. I fell down that hole today and five hours later I crawled out dazed and confused.
tennenbaum Do you have your numbers posted anywhere? I went down the hole and tested various settings today and noticed I did not have any from you. Agree your numbers could be hot and spicy. I may prefer mild and bland. But variety is the spice of life.
Your help would be appreciated.
i like Grimeys Setting. It's uncompromising (and funny enough, pretty the opposite of what i think it should be done with my theory) but seducing! - and i'm definitely a bit faster with his setting. Jack's setting and its derivates (Haiden, morpwr...) make sense and feel perfect according to my findings about FFB. They really pushed the envelope in terms of maxing it out. Bmanic is radical in his way. My settings? The truth is, I'm indecisive. Due to my findings how the entire system clicks and ticks (as far as i know) I'd opt now for the "pure" approach, without RAG/RAB/RAC. But i'm insecure about it, because my main goal was to find a setting that may serve as the best compromise for starters. Because i felt a bit sorry all the time that the devs gave us the freedom, but with the risk to loose a lot of potential fans due to the complexity... But going the "pure" way, it comes with the grain of salt to negate that great "invention" of RAG - which is kind of genius in terms of immersion, fidelity and fun. The more i got into the game's FFB the more i realized how consequent AJ's (the devs) approach was, when planned the FFB "architecture". Even to the result, that the 100/100/100/100 mix is what i think is the truth about the different Fxyzm forces in terms of true physics. It was just a matter of unlucky circumstances, serious flaws at start, and misconceptions that pCars' FFB was perceived in a controversial way in the beginning. By now - with the knowledge that grew - and the game's better defaults with less flaws the FFB is just awsome. The only thing that overshadows its quality is the fact (imo) that the physic engine has a blind spot: the "pendelum effect", the "tank slapper", when you can't catch teh car when the rear gets loose abruptly. Beside some other flaws (e.g. when two tires get on the screen...) Due to those "imperfections" a certain mistrust was always alive for me when i tested the physics... After i while i learned, that such "flaws" don't corrupt the general quality of the physics and FFB!
I don't wanna be evasive towards your question about my settings, Frankly, I'm shy to come up with it, because a.) i think Grimey, JS and others came up with great and well working approaches that are perfect for 95% of us racers. And b.) before posting a setting that i think is relevant and substantial - even in its exotic-ness - i have to test it intensively with different cars on different tracks... with competitive lap times! Anything else would be a bit of a sloppy try (in my eyes) to come up with something relevant, compared to e.g. Grimey's or Jack's work! I'm actually ambitious enough to come up with my own "signature" setting ;-) but - pity - i don't find the time right now to achieve so:D
However, last weekend i tested without RAG and made sure that absolutely no forces clipped or got saturated (MS at 12-14! with my RUF 8 GT3 on Watkins Glen short) ) while starting with 100/100/100/100 and then tweaking it a bit but not much, since i realized that Fy is strong in reality as well... and i took it like that. I used SK 0.7 and SR 0.2, (but would start now to give it up). No PWM(S) with my T300. No smoothing. I level everything to max 1.00 in the hud without clipping, with SG = 1.00. No SC. Then i "master" with FFB the output to my T300 at about 55 - 65. I could go to 75 without clipping at wheel, but it's too strong for my taste. I learned to read the FFB characteristic independently from the absolute strength of torque at the wheel. Steering sensitivity 50. Though i think your advise to set it to 100 (or around 86)is a great hint. I used that setting some time ago and it helped me a lot to avoid tank slappers. The result? As said above, a meal without pepper, salt and sensations, but i had the feeling that in the long run I'll go faster with it than with any other setting. (I'm not talking about fun here... ;-)
Saying so, i may end again with an indecisive and somehow unsatisfying summary: The more you know (about how the FFB works) the more you enjoy it - no matter which settings you choose. The fun (for me) comes with the possibilities to test, tweak and alter the FFB system. It's a bit of an experimental sandbox to me, that taught me (or forced me ;-) to learn a lot of driving physics that i wasn't aware of for many years. Even while i was a passionate car enthusiast in real life, since i bought my first red Alfa GTV '82 and tuned it to a rare beauty... :cool:
Q:...if the FFB chart never reaches the top, why would I be clipping?
A: Because the signal that is not clipping in the HUD box can clip in the wheel - if FFB is set to 100. Because what's 85% in the HUD is 10% too much for the T300 wheel.
In my mind, this isn't really clipping as such. But does the T300 really top out at just 75% force? Does anyone have a linear force test for this wheel? I'd be interested to take a look.
tennenbaum
01-03-2016, 00:31
In my mind, this isn't really clipping as such. But does the T300 really top out at just 75% force? Does anyone have a linear force test for this wheel? I'd be interested to take a look.
i might be wrong, but the thing is (imo), with the linear force test it's difficult to test the T300 wheels behavior when it it gets fed with signals from PS4 that are higher than FFB 75 (while signal = max. 1.00 before FFB). But i must say i'm on thin ice here, and in case of doubt i'd rather trust your findings than mine..
What i can say by my own practical experience, when i feed my T300 with more than 0.75 it starts to get "grainy". I mean, i don't feel it at 0.76 but for sure if I get closer to 1.00...
indeed it's garbage/road noise!... point is, it feels lively while at the same time high saturations create heavy wheels - which most people prefer.
The only way to get back to the pure feeling is to switch off the RAG/RAB/RAC module...
People should just turn it off, while keeping everything else the same. Then they would realize what's all about...
Then it gets obvious how much of the "pure" signal got compressed (soft limited) and altered.
The problem is, that strong compression is almost as worse as clipping. The thing is actually simple: Every time clipping happens, the clipping doesn't only cause flatlining but also creates "garbage" the moment a curve gets cut, leading to an edge in the curve. Problem at the edge (curve is cut to flat) the digital quantization gets a hickup... But saturation (same as clipping but without the edges that cause digital garbage) leads to numbness too (no differentiation), which isn't much better than clipping.
RAG/RAB/RAC is like sugar, peper and salt... it takes a while to get rid of it and then getting the sensation of the unaltered details. It's a very personal choice. Some like it hard, hot, spicy and over the top, some like it soft and gentle... And - that is the paradox of it, both feel great to the individual and with both approaches you can race fast.
As soon as i get back behind the wheel i'll try to do the "pure" way... (granted, people will find the settings terrible..., lifeless, numb, too light ;-) But on a more serious side: The problem with the "purer" approaches is the lightness of the wheel while going straight and the small forces when turning in, plus less road feel in general...
i don't wanna sound too "Bob Marley" (as bmanic, or was is morpwr?, once said it), but as much as we love to dig into the "rabbit whole" (me first ;-) as stunning it is still to realize how different settings and perceptions can be. (Hhm, I'm just curious to see how Asseto Corso will feel "right out of the box"...)
I guess we would be also surprised how different the driving feels even between the formula 1 cars of the different teams...
I'm not sure my comment about weird road noise came out right. The problem is the ffb can create things that aren't there when the forces are calculated goofy or from clipping. I noticed it on the sweeper at the glen you get what feels like little bumps or the tires skipping. If you get rid of it youll get the weight feeling through the whole corner. I expect to feel anything that's actually there but I don't want it making things that aren't.lol Its amazing the detail even a t300 can give I can only imagine what it feels like with a high end wheel.
I didn't like when I started turning the gain down to get rid of the clipping at first. I can see why people don't like it.But after leaving it for a couple days so I could adjust to it I'm glad I did. I can still feel the start finish line at the glen just not as strongly. It shouldn't be a speed bump lol. Its sort of like the audio analogy I guess with gain you can turn it up and it gets louder to a point but with that you get noise/distortion. When you get rid of the ffb noise the important details get very clear.
PureMalt77
01-03-2016, 07:56
In my mind, this isn't really clipping as such. But does the T300 really top out at just 75% force? Does anyone have a linear force test for this wheel? I'd be interested to take a look.
If helps anyone, this is a linear test I did a whole ago with the Control Panel set at 100% FFB
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1y9vnxHzFipAPjGPOekdpEkmq7p8cV7Q3WQi4AOZWhX0/edit?usp=sharing
And here another with 75% FFB
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/144Mnou2TYmTIq_8QOQ38XZBJyOWlD1AFw5WnpKiqQY8/edit?usp=sharing
GrimeyDog
01-03-2016, 11:17
I'm not sure my comment about weird road noise came out right. The problem is the ffb can create things that aren't there when the forces are calculated goofy or from clipping. I noticed it on the sweeper at the glen you get what feels like little bumps or the tires skipping. If you get rid of it youll get the weight feeling through the whole corner. I expect to feel anything that's actually there but I don't want it making things that aren't.lol Its amazing the detail even a t300 can give I can only imagine what it feels like with a high end wheel.
if your diving the Porsche the Front tires are Skipping arround...Its Rear Motor So not too much weight on the Front...Same in car FFB same Corner with Mclaren or BMW feels much Different.
if your diving the Porsche the Front tires are Skipping arround...Its Rear Motor So not too much weight on the Front...Same in car FFB same Corner with Mclaren or BMW feels much Different.
I get that grimey. Problem is the ffb system and wheels can only produce so much and sometimes what feels like actual information is actually clipping or a wheel that's already saturated so what you get was actually a ffb hole or only part of something. I ran a race with the mustang gt last night at brands hatch and was amazed at the detail I could feel. Usually the mustang isn't a great car for feeling stuff that's why I used it but I spent more time paying attention to all things I could feel than paying attention to the racing.lol
I've mentioned this before but with my Fanatec 911 GT2 and ps4 the in game FFB set to 1 or 100 there is no difference in feel .
A few patches ago ( not sure Which one ) the FFB felt much better at 25 than 100 , but now were ever i run it the feeling is the same , but turning it down on the wheel seems to give more effect than previously .
It might be a Fanatec thing ?
I think your last statement might be correct. I forget who said you were better moving up to clipping than down but I do think its a better approach at this point. I was shocked at how far I turned gain down and still had noticeable clipping. Granted only really high forces now but still clipping. Thing is at least with the t300 clipping can be felt as weird road noise. Noticable especially in fast sweeping corners. At this point I guess I would call it electrical garbage which turns into ffb garbage.lol Because it didn't make a obvious flat line doesn't mean it didn't clip which is were I think a lot of people fall into the trap including myself. I'm sure many would be shocked how far they would have to turn something down before most of the clipping actually went away. Which would allow them to turn the ffb master up for wheel weight.
I think this is also part of the approach difference. To me, FF is wheel weight, because it's benign. It's not creating the forces, it's just adjusting the strength of the final calculation. To me, that's adding weight to the wheel. TF isn't a benign operator. It's part of the force calculation. Since changing TF alters the final calculation, I don't consider it simple weight. TF does far more than just adding weight/strength to the wheel. IMO, PCars is a more complex version of what you find in other games, and TF is the equivalent of what other games call Force Feedback; FF is what they call Wheel Weight; and some of the in-car scales provide what other games call Environmental Feedback. The same three sliders/system, just spread out and broken down differently in PCars to give the user more control.
Just like it's possible to set FF too high for a certain global mix. I also think it's possible to set TF too high for a global configuration. But I think the later issue (TF being too high) is more difficult to spot, because TF isn't a benign operator. I think FF too high is much easier to spot than TF being too high, because when TF is pushed too high (in globals or in-car) it often seems like your getting more detail/liveliness from the wheel, but it's just additional noise. A quieter wheel would give you the exact same critical feedback, without the additional extraneous chatter. Now, if you like, or have become used to, the noise and have come to think of it as texture/detail, then removing it will feel strange. IMO, that new quiet is why many people reject the settings--for being bland/numb--and go back to the noise, even though the full dynamic range is actually there.
I think this is also part of the approach difference. To me, FF is wheel weight, because it's benign. It's not creating the forces, it's just adjusting the strength of the final calculation. To me, that's adding weight to the wheel. TF isn't a benign operator. It's part of the force calculation. Since changing TF alters the final calculation, I don't consider it simple weight. TF does far more than just adding weight/strength to the wheel. IMO, PCars is a more complex version of what you find in other games, and TF is the equivalent of what other games call Force Feedback; FF is what they call Wheel Weight; and some of the in-car scales provide what other games call Environmental Feedback. The same three sliders/systems, just spread out and broken down differently in PCars to give the user more control.
Just like it's possible to set FF too high for a certain global mix. I also think it's possible to set TF too high for a global configuration. But I think the later issue (TF being too high) is more difficult to spot, because TF isn't a benign operator. I think FF too high is much easier to spot than TF being to high, because when TF is pushed too high (in globals or in-car) it often seems like your getting more detail/liveliness from the wheel, but it's just additional noise. A quieter wheel would give you the exact same critical feedback, without the additional chatter. Now, if you like, or have become used to, the noise and have come to think of it as texture, then removing it will feel strange. IMO, that new quiet is why many people reject the settings--for being bland/numb--and go back to the noise, even though the full dynamic range is actually there.
Very well said. Thats why at first I didn't like it but I knew turning the gain down was the correct thing to do so I figured id give it a chance. Its not bland its very clear without the added noise. I think I could actually feel tire scrub but I only ran one race last night so I need more time to be sure.
Tiberius_85
01-03-2016, 13:35
You speak of turning gain down, but I didn't catch how much. It seems you are still experimenting, but which gain do you use now?
You speak of turning gain down, but I didn't catch how much. It seems you are still experimenting, but which gain do you use now?
I think right now I'm at 1.05 for gain. I dropped the scoops a little to but I don't remember exactly where I settled. Ill have to check when I get home. Forgot to mention you will probably have to turn the ffb master up some after turning the gain down.
I've mentioned this before but with my Fanatec 911 GT2 and ps4 the in game FFB set to 1 or 100 there is no difference in feel .
A few patches ago ( not sure Which one ) the FFB felt much better at 25 than 100 , but now were ever i run it the feeling is the same , but turning it down on the wheel seems to give more effect than previously .
It might be a Fanatec thing ?
I'm pretty sure this has to do with the lack of an Auto setting when Fanatec wheels are in PS4 mode. If you run the base in Xb1 mode, you can set your at wheel FF to "Auto", and it will respond accordingly to the game's global FF setting. But when in PS4 mode, the only wheel setting that can be set to Auto is Sensitivity. Wheel FF defaults, and only goes, to 100, which seems to override the game's global FF.
GrimeyDog
01-03-2016, 21:02
I think this is also part of the approach difference. To me, FF is wheel weight, because it's benign. It's not creating the forces, it's just adjusting the strength of the final calculation. To me, that's adding weight to the wheel. TF isn't a benign operator. It's part of the force calculation. Since changing TF alters the final calculation, I don't consider it simple weight. TF does far more than just adding weight/strength to the wheel. IMO, PCars is a more complex version of what you find in other games, and TF is the equivalent of what other games call Force Feedback; FF is what they call Wheel Weight; and some of the in-car scales provide what other games call Environmental Feedback. The same three sliders/system, just spread out and broken down differently in PCars to give the user more control.
Just like it's possible to set FF too high for a certain global mix. I also think it's possible to set TF too high for a global configuration. But I think the later issue (TF being too high) is more difficult to spot, because TF isn't a benign operator. I think FF too high is much easier to spot than TF being too high, because when TF is pushed too high (in globals or in-car) it often seems like your getting more detail/liveliness from the wheel, but it's just additional noise. A quieter wheel would give you the exact same critical feedback, without the additional extraneous chatter. Now, if you like, or have become used to, the noise and have come to think of it as texture/detail, then removing it will feel strange. IMO, that new quiet is why many people reject the settings--for being bland/numb--and go back to the noise, even though the full dynamic range is actually there.
Very well said. Thats why at first I didn't like it but I knew turning the gain down was the correct thing to do so I figured id give it a chance. Its not bland its very clear without the added noise. I think I could actually feel tire scrub but I only ran one race last night so I need more time to be sure.
I think that you should try My FFB PDF again with 9.0 and test the Readjusted RAC values... I even Managed to get All the FA cars with No oscillation!!!....With My Tweek TF controls wheel weight and you can + or - the FFB Effects, Curbs, Bumps with the RAC. then set the Final at the wheel Strength with th GM FFB... The Tweek is wirking Very well!!! The Tweek can be used with or without SoP.... once you get a feel for it the in Car FFB settings can be adjusted to taste. just a suggestion.
tennenbaum
01-03-2016, 22:09
I think this is also part of the approach difference. To me, FF is wheel weight, because it's benign. It's not creating the forces, it's just adjusting the strength of the final calculation. To me, that's adding weight to the wheel. TF isn't a benign operator. It's part of the force calculation. Since changing TF alters the final calculation, I don't consider it simple weight. TF does far more than just adding weight/strength to the wheel. IMO, PCars is a more complex version of what you find in other games, and TF is the equivalent of what other games call Force Feedback; FF is what they call Wheel Weight; and some of the in-car scales provide what other games call Environmental Feedback. The same three sliders/system, just spread out and broken down differently in PCars to give the user more control.
Just like it's possible to set FF too high for a certain global mix. I also think it's possible to set TF too high for a global configuration. But I think the later issue (TF being too high) is more difficult to spot, because TF isn't a benign operator. I think FF too high is much easier to spot than TF being too high, because when TF is pushed too high (in globals or in-car) it often seems like your getting more detail/liveliness from the wheel, but it's just additional noise. A quieter wheel would give you the exact same critical feedback, without the additional extraneous chatter. Now, if you like, or have become used to, the noise and have come to think of it as texture/detail, then removing it will feel strange. IMO, that new quiet is why many people reject the settings--for being bland/numb--and go back to the noise, even though the full dynamic range is actually there.
exactly! all due to the doublefaced RAG, and RAC's logarithmic behavior.... boon and bane. the book with the seven seals...
I think that you should try My FFB PDF again with 9.0 and test the Readjusted RAC values... I even Managed to get All the FA cars with No oscillation!!!....With My Tweek TF controls wheel weight and you can + or - the FFB Effects, Curbs, Bumps with the RAC. then set the Final at the wheel Strength with th GM FFB... The Tweek is wirking Very well!!! The Tweek can be used with or without SoP.... once you get a feel for it the in Car FFB settings can be adjusted to taste. just a suggestion.
I'm not having any problems with oscillation in the FA (or any car) with my current settings, and they feel really good. Pretty sure I tried yours with 8.0. I don't think the RAC was the issue for me. They were good, and I was able to match my times, I just wasn't into the feel. I might give them another go, but it would take a lot to pull me from my current settings. They're like butter to me. :)
exactly! all due to the doublefaced RAG, and RAC's logarithmic behavior.... boon and bane. the book with the seven seals...
LOL... I'll have to take your word for it. I'm not sure what the exact cause is.
As promised, 2 FFB charts, the usual RUF-GT3 @Watkins and FA @Sakitto. Both laps tested with zero assists to avoid any surprise in feel.
(don't mind my lap on the FA, don't drive that too often. probably Haiden will laugh at it!). All stock setup...
I did about 20 laps Sunday afternoon. Man I forgot how much fun that track is. Both sectors 1 and 2 have corners you have to hit just right and fine tune your line while you're going through them. I managed a 1:18:7X with the default setup--no DRS or KERS. It's been a while, though. I was having discipline issues in the last half of sector 1. The default tune was fine, I was just missing marks. That uphill snake that rolls into that uphill sweep is tricky. In fact, when I pulled the 1:18, I blew the entry came into the snake too fast, and lost time coming out. At that point, I was about .2XX down from my last run. But then I f'ing nailed the long sweep at the end of sector 2, and made up enough time to break the into the 1:18s. :) Another 20 or so laps, and I'm pretty sure I could get into the 1:17s, still without using DRS/KERS. Before that, I had been practicing Nurburgring for a few days, and was surprised at how much rougher the surface felt at Sakitto. I had forgotten. I think I'm putting Sakitto next on my list of tracks to work on. :)
spacepadrille
01-03-2016, 23:33
Hi All ! After reading all this new stuff (this thread is really very active ;-), and following morpwr's advice, I lowered the gain from 1.22 to 1.06-1.10, and raise FF from O.69 to 0.75... It feels great ! Better with GT3 than with road cars, but great. Less noise, more pertinent information. Going too far this way may result un an efficient but "robotic" driving.
Following the advise of tennenbaum, I tried after that to cut off RAG/RAB/RAC, setting all that to zero, keeping the rest of the setting unchanged. I picked the Ruf, went to Glen short, and after 3 turns thinking it was strange but not so bad like that.... I beat my own record ! 1.07.2xx !!! Without RAG module, the tyres feel is excellent. The road/bump/curbs less. But to drive fast... wow ! My telemetry was not clipping, so with my actual settings RAG module is not preventing clipping but just reshaping the signal.
I go back testing, how exciting this is !
Following the advise of tennenbaum, I tried after that to cut off RAG/RAB/RAC, setting all that to zero, keeping the rest of the setting unchanged.
Down the rabbit hole I go.
Dam, I wanted to do some reasearch on ForceFeedback since I thought it was long overdue. But, 4000 posts in this thread alone will take me over 33 hours to do at 30 seconds a post!:nightmare:
There must be an easier way.
GrimeyDog
02-03-2016, 00:21
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79wSPe2kmNQ
Look at this dudes hands on the wheel!!! His steering wheel is far from calm.... he's just sawing away at the wheel!!!
at 30mph going through a corner ok smooth wheel at 65mph and above if My RL car wheel was smooth i would think i must have crashed and Died:D
Pcars is a racing Sim so it feel natural when the wheel gets a little rough....LOL>>> I smoothed the steering out for my wife to see what she thought she said it was tooo smoooth and wasn't natural Didn't feel like RL and kept running off the road...then i went back to my norm and she was able to run a good lap and keep it on the road, She said the more lively feel gave her info about whats going on with car and track...LMAO she asked why i lightened the wheel up was i trying to Play Mario carts:p
spacepadrille
02-03-2016, 00:33
Dam, I wanted to do some reasearch on ForceFeedback since I thought it was long overdue. But, 4000 posts in this thread alone will take me over 33 hours to do at 30 seconds a post!:nightmare:
There must be an easier way.
Yes :D read only the last 20 pages :cool:
More seriously, just try Grimey, Haiden, poircq or morpwr's settings, depending of your wheel.
Dam, I wanted to do some reasearch on ForceFeedback since I thought it was long overdue. But, 4000 posts in this thread alone will take me over 33 hours to do at 30 seconds a post!:nightmare:
There must be an easier way.
I won't lie to you, as hard as i would wish to say it's really simple... Well, it's not too bad. The first thing is really to just drive the default FFB. Just enough to understand what you like and what you don't like. Try to understand the good and bad parts, in term of driving behaviors. Understeer, Oversteer, road feel, trail braking, weight transfert, etc...
From there, you'll be in a better place to ask for help about specific problems. Tackle them one by one. The slower you approch them, the faster you'll get it balanced to your taste.
This is a really great thread, but i gotta agree the information may be a little bit spread out, depending on what you seek.
You may have a look at threads linked in my signature, there's the official guide and another one i wrote, trying to gather informations about FFB, from lots of forum users.
Good luck.
Or you could just buy Haiden a beer and have him set your FFB! :cool:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79wSPe2kmNQ
Look at this dudes hands on the wheel!!! His steering wheel is far from calm.... he's just sawing away at the wheel!!!
at 30mph going through a corner ok smooth wheel at 65mph and above if My RL car wheel was smooth i would think i must have crashed and Died:D
Pcars is a racing Sim so it feel natural when the wheel gets a little rough....LOL>>> I smoothed the steering out for my wife to see what she thought she said it was tooo smoooth and wasn't natural Didn't feel like RL and kept running off the road...then i went back to my norm and she was able to run a good lap and keep it on the road, She said the more lively feel gave her info about whats going on with car and track...LMAO she asked why i lightened the wheel up was i trying to Play Mario carts:p
I think you might be interpreting the whole quieter wheel thing wrong. Yes, there should be fight in the wheel, definitely. But not extraneous noise. There's plenty of fight in my wheel, when I'm braking hard and cornering, especially on rougher tracks, even on straights with uneven surfaces. And like the video, my wheel is beast to handle on the Nordschleife. But I've also tried quite a few settings where I've felt feedback, even though, given what I'm doing with the car at that moment, I shouldn't be. That's chatter/noise. There shouldn't be that much fight in the wheel at Dubai. If the wheel has a relatively equal amount of fight on all tracks, then I'd say the FFB is out of balance, because that shouldn't be so.
I also think comparing mid-level sim wheels to a RL wheel in an actual race car is a little apples to oranges. The forces acting on that RL rim are far greater than our mid-level consumer sim wheels can produce. A DD wheel would come closer. What we feel may be similar physics-wise, but at way lower force levels. Also, the wheel in the video is actually fairly calm on straights and easy corners. It's mostly under heavy braking that he get the shimmies. But he's also running the Nordschleife. You'll always be wrestling the wheel on that track. I doubt there'd be so much fight driving on Silverstone, Dubai, or even on Nurburgring.
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