View Full Version : Lets talk FFB PC, PS4, XBox1
GrimeyDog
07-09-2015, 00:42
08/21/2016 -----> 10.0#v3 PDF TF/RAC 75
NEW ---> 03/14/2017 ----> Added PC Tweeker file and PDF Notes
03/11/2017: New Fanatec CSW v2.5 RAC/TF_75 FFB test:yes: No Retweeking...all working great with better Subtle FFB feel...PC only CSW v2.5 will Not work with PS4
I Now own Pcars for PC and console PS4 / Xbox 1.
I can Now 100% confirm the TF/RAC 75 Tweek will port to PC 1 to 1 with No extra tweeking Required... It can be fine tuned to taste/FFB Strength Level with a few clicks + or - to the in car masters.
03/11/2017: New Fanatec CSW v2.5 RAC/TF_75 FFB test:yes: @ Sakitto GP No Retweeking...all working great with better Subtle FFB feel.
http://youtu.be/j5HLblRqLMo
Sakitto Never Felt this good!!!
Pcars now seems to have much better progressive FFB feel with the v2.5 and new FW!!!No its not over the top strong like AC but its definitely there....i think that because the wheel moves more freely because of much less drag this allows the progressive FFB forces to really shine through... that last fast sweeper curve before the straight to the finish line the progressive FFB is just spot on!!! its a well balanced fight between weight transfer and tire slip!!! watch the FFB graph...i can Clearly feel all of it!!!...
i feel the tire slip with the regular v2 as well but it's not as vivid and clear... While the v2.0 gives great FFB feel with Pcars the weight transfer feels like more of a constant weight that turns of and on with notably less progressive feel than the v2.5 gives...Many will think or say that Gdog just taking smack and Nope it can't be that big a difference.... well its not when talking a bout stronger FFB forces but when your talking about more subtle FFB feel then the jump becomes more significant...I'm sure that as many more get the v2.5 wheel and report back that many will share my same thoughts the diff can be clearly felt.... The subtle FFB forces define and give clarity to the stronger FFB forces... just like with music bass is just Noise and Vibration until you add in the Highs and the Mids....I don't know how much of this is due to new wheel TEC or FW:confused: but if they can port even 3/4ths of the progressive FFB feel and reduce wheel drag for the v2.0!!! I'm sure many v2.0 owners will be dancing with joy.
I made No changes to my TF/RAC 75 tweek... v2.0 to v2.5 was plug and play with better subtle FFB feel.
O2/20/17 Edit: Pcars FFB system break Down..the FFB System is Full of Redundant Settings:yes:
Fx,Fy,Fz,Mz & SOP set the Level/Volume of the Different FFB Effects that you Feel--->In Car Masters Sets the Level/Volume that those Forces are Blended together as 1 Group of FFB Forces before--->TF = Global Spindle Master Scale it adjust other Final Output Level of the In Car Masters and Sends it to the Relative Adjust system.... Note this Means that No matter where you have in Car Masters set to it Really Has No Effect as far as Clipping is Concerned... Low Masters will Give Less Car Road Feel and High Masters will Give More Car/Road Feel.
RAG sets the Total power of the FFB system..1.0/100= 100% FFB System Power.....RAG will allow FFB Forces to operate at any Value within its set Limit.... This Setting Need Not be Set Higher than 1.0/100
RAB Bleeds off FFB power to Create Changes in wheel weight Creating FFB Effects Feel.
RAC sets the Limit/Volume of FFB Effects.... RAC Must be set Lower than RAG!!! Its should be set Low enough to account for FFB Spikes that are Caused By Weight transfer, Curbs etc.... Remember the Fan theory Just because you turn off the power to a Fan the Fan Blades will Keep spinning until the Residual power Dissipates... The FFB system is the same way... Just because you Cut/Limit the FFB power at EX: 85 FFB Spikes can and will Keep Rising until the residual FFB power Dissipates... Therefore if your getting FFB Graph Line Flat spotting/Clipping Reduce the RAC until the Spike Stop at 95--->98% Of Box FFB Graph Box Volume... You must leave a little room to Compensate for Diff cars that may put out More FFB.
GM FFB is only to set the final at the wheel FFB strength....IMO GM FFB 100% Rule is False!!! Fanatec wheels because they have on wheel FFB Level/Volume control is the only wheel that 100% GM FFB Can or Should be used... Fanatec wheels use the on Wheel FFB Level/Volume Control to set the on wheel FFB strength that feels best for you.
I'm Not Looking to Debate Opinions... No Need for that... There are only settings to test...Testing it for your self is the only way to prove what i say to be True or False...I welcome all Comments based on Test results.
This FFB tweeking Method can be used and.easily adjusted to any wheel.
Loss of Dynamic Range is Caused Directly and Only By Low in Car Masters... You are Killing tbe Very FFB you want to Feel at the Source.
Again I welcome all Comments based on Test Results.
IMO this whole Signal Compression/Loss of Dynamic Range thing is 100% False... There is No Loss of Dynamic Range other than using Low in Car Masters.... That's like Listening to your Ipod at a Low Volume that you can Barely Hear... Every Note and word of the Song is still there you just have the Volume sooo Low you cant Hear and Discern properly whats actually playing... The FFB is the same way when using Low in Car Master:yes:
Also With Older wheels there is No Loss of Dynamic Range...Look at it like this... just because some one is Color Blind and cant See or Discern the Diff between Red and Green Does Not mean that the Colors are Not there... they are still there they just cant be seen by a color blind person... Older wheels are the same the Full Dynamic Range is there but the wheel may Not have New enough Tec to pick up on such a broad range of FFB frequencies that are Now being programmed into Games
02/21/17 Update: I tested RAG 200 -vs- RAG 100
Every thing else are my normal settings
Testing TF/RAC 75 with RAG 200 -VS- RAG 100 in GT3 Mclaren and as always stock suspension tune.
RAG 200 or 100 Note the FFB Graph still No Clipping!
http://youtu.be/Z_nPn-N08n0
I chose this car because it drives very Tame/Smooth and doesn't have a lot of Bump/Road feel compared to the Gt3 Ruf...
Very interesting test...While RAG 200 will Give more FFB feel which shows in the stronger FFB graph...The problem is it feels good on the GT3 Mclaren but on the Gt3 Ruf its too Much the wheel becomes very jerky and stuttery.. High RAG can Not be Balanced for all cars without lowering in Car Masters Significantly which IMO is killing FFB at the source.
Solution is again as always...RAG 1.0 and adjust the in car masters until the car feels right to you.
The main point with Pcars FFB system is to avoid clipping:yes: once you can set the globals to avoid clipping you can then tweek for best FFB Feel:yes: I have shown that you can use in car masters 100 RAG 1.0, SG 1.0 and get very powerful balanced FFB with No clipping or loss of dynamic FFB range...The video shows you can use in car masters 100 and RAG 2.0 and still get No clipping:yes:
Pcars FFB is supposed to be based on Pure Steering Rack Forces that Create the FFB Effects and feel:yes:
So the Question is i don't understand why some continue to promote the use of low in car masters:confused: why continue to kill the FFB at the source using low in Car Masters??? Even with in Car Masters 100, RAG 1.0, SG 1.0 there is no clipping to be seen in the FFB Graph and No loss of dynamic FFB range:yes: Yes there are many ways to tweek the FFB system... I tried low in car masters and it just really kills too much feel with No Benefit.
10/26/16 Direct comparison Videos PC -vs-PS4 FFB Graphs...Videos are same track,Time of Day, Weather and FOV...All settings shown in video to confirm that PC and PS4 are using same Exact FFB settings and Both have great FFB and Road Feel No extra tweeking Needed... Compare the FFB Graphs, test it and see for your self.
PC, LMP1 Marek, Watkins Short
http://youtu.be/cSKil7yt-pU
PS4, LMP1 Marek, watkins Short Video
http://youtu.be/6d-U-AWVpck
08/25/16 posted 2 New PC PCars videos below
08/25/16---> PC, Gt3 Ruff, Watkins short, TF/RAC 75 ported straight to PC no tweeking Needed...just plug it in and play.
http://youtu.be/rrgOQ1Q836c
I will be Posting more direct comparison Videos PC VS PS4 FFB Graphs...Videos will be same track,Time of Day, Weather and FOV.
Stay tuned!!! if there is a car,track or weather condition you would like me to test PC,PS4 post in the Thread, I could do XB1 also but the Xbox cant make videos like PC,PS4...or can it??? LOL I dunno i haven't been exploring new features on XBox lately... feel free to clue me in if I'm mistaken:yes:
Many of us have the same Equipment so if your a non Believer Then feel Free to try it for your self:yes:... You can always set the FFB strength either through the on wheel FFB settings for Fanatec wheels or + or - to the in car Masters:yes: Other wheels you will have to set the at the wheel FFB strength level through the GM FFB... I suggest starting with the wheel manufactures recommended FFB setting then + or - until it feels right to you:yes:... then test in a car you know well and + or - the in car masters as needed per car until you have the FFB strength you like...You can use my in car settings or you can set the Fx,Fy,Fz,Mz & SOP to best bring out FFB effects you like to feel.
08/25/16 My observation from Tweeking all 3 systems is as follows.
PC and PS4 are Very Close/Similar in FFB feel but the PC FFB has more Nuanced and Subtle Feel... They almost Feel the same but the Clarity of the PC FFB forces are just outta the Range of what PS4/XB1 can produce:yes:
XBox 1 MS New FFB system is Not in a good State... No Matter How you Tweek it... although you can get it to feel Good It just Doesn't Have the Fidelity and Subtle Feel of PC or PS4...Remember MS is using a New FFB protocol that was developed for XB1, I don't think that they have perfected it yet...When using this tweek with XB1 it is very important that you set the Game Master FFB according to the desired FFB Strength that you want at the wheel for best feel and performance.
With all this Tweeking and Such i feel like such a Geek:p Its Been alotta Head Ache:dejection: But also alotta Fun:cool:
MY interpretation of RAC is correct for My specific settings with Car masters 100 For other users with low in Car Masters their input to the RA module is less so it works differently... For Me using RAC 75 or lower works well and i will stick with TF 75 or Lower with in Car Masters 100 because it leaves +99 or -99 Room for adjustment with in car Masters.
IMO With Settings 100/1.00 and Below the FFB Power and Feel is there... If the Power and Feel were Lacking with 100/1.00 and Below settings i would agree that Higher #'s would be Needed... But because the FFB Power and Feel is there IMO when you have to use some settings 101/1.01+ then something in the FFB Chain is Not being Balanced properly which causes you to overdrive 1 part of the System to compensate for the other parts being under used/out of balance... I use No Settings above 100/1.00
Quote from JS post page 318, post 3171--->"Clamp - at 1.0 or lower the "limiting effect" works depending on TF level as expected. So with Gain at 1.0 no torque change is applied, Andrew Weber describes it "the intuitively correct value", at this
stage the module (Clamp) is just a limiter, with TF 100 most noticeable" ..... I Agree 100% With this statement:yes:
Tweek will work on PC, PS4, Xbox1 but you will have to set game master FFB according Wheel and system used!!!
PC,PS4 and Xbox 1 Note the GM FFB Must be set According to wheel used...the Exception to this rule applys only for Fanatec wheels on PC/PS4 set GM FFB to 100 and use the on wheel FFB to set your at the wheel FFB strength.
***PS4 GM FFB No longer adjust at the wheel FFB strength for Fanatec wheels the FFB Level is Now set by the Fanatec on wheel FFB setting***
***This Lower RAC setting works Well for All Wheels and also Lowers the chances of in game FFB Clipping***
***The in car masters can be adjusted per car to get desired FFB strength per car, I have set the in car masters to 200 and No Clipping!!! Adjust masters + or - per car as needed***
To me FFB is FFB once i found my Global settings i use the same in car FFB in every car and all cars feel Great and still have their own Handling identity that is unique to that car...The way i see it is the in car FFB is the ROAD... The Road doe's Not change because you change your car... What changes is the way every car will handle a Bumpy track, Sharp Curves or Rumble strips. I don't understand why some use different in car FFB for every car if the Global setting are set right...To me when you use different in Car FFB for every Car what you are doing is Creating Generic Road feel that takes away from the Natural Handling of that car... EX: GT3 Bentley and the GT3 Porsche Ride and handle very different... The Porsche is Rear Engine, the Bentley is Front Engine and they are different weight Bias... IMO The FFB is just FFB you set the effects that you want to feel and how strong you want certain effects to be... The rest Needs to be done with suspension tuning.
I Drive and Test All Cars with Stock Suspension settings.
I recommend that Cars Suspension and Aero be tuned only after you have the FFB settings set to your liking.
Post your Videos here so we can compare the Graphs and lets talk about FFB...
I'm using PS4, CSW v2 wheel, V3 Pedals and my own FFB Tweek.
Special thanks to Poirqc, tennenbaum, Skoader, Haiden, Morpwr and all who have posted valuable information to bring this thread to life as a Helpful tool for the Pcars community.... i will be editing and sorry if I'm forgetting any1 :confused: ... LOL
This Great post was made by Poirqc it is very helpful:yes:
***also link to Poirqc base line FFB thread below***
poirqc
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/images/statusicon/user-offline.png
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?35147-Baseline-Wheel-FFB-Values-Google-Sheet-amp-FCM-Universal
Common terms
We talked about having some common terms, well, here's my shot at it:
Torque Delta: A change of torque happening over time. It's either the FFB signal moving up or down. When the line is above or below 0, but is staying mostly flat, this is static torque.
FFB Deadzone:Part of the signal that is too low to make the wheel move. Usualy happend around TDC, but can be everywhere. It can also happend if the signal is too fast for the wheel to follow. You can see it in the telemtry but the wheel doesn't actually move.
Linear signal:Part of the signal that gets output as is, 1:1. It's strong enough to move the wheel, but low enough so it's not compressed.
Compressed signal:Part of the signal that gets compressed by RAC or Soft Clipping. The more you compress the signal, the smaller the torque delta will be.
Saturated signal: This can happend anywhere in the telemetry. Could happend in low forces with too much Scoop Reduction. Could happend near max torque when TF is too high against RAC or Soft Clipping.
Clipped signal:Well, easy enough, this signal goes above 1 so the wheel just output maximum torque.
You obviously don't want the first and last one. Well, it's not that easy. Having a small deadzone is not Too bad, you don't really miss much. It gives you space for other forces. Having just a tad of clipping isn't too bad also. If it only cuts top of spikes. Done deal. As for the slope of the signal, it's up to you, as long as don't miss out on the information you want to feel.
The FFB can be linear, there's no compression going on. It give a light weight wheel, on most hardware, since their max torque output is not really strong. It could be stronger on a Direct Drive wheel.
As you move TF(For simplicity sake) up you start to need to compress the end of the torque slope to prevent the signal from being clipped. At that point, the beginning of the slope is linear, and the end is compressed.
At some point, the signal may not clip, but it gets saturated. From my point of view, a saturated signal is one where the torque deltas are too hard to discern.
Finaly, if there's too much TF against RAC or Soft Clipping, the signal gets clipped too often.
If i go back to FFB dead zone, this is where smoothing(WPS or FxyzMz smoothing) can help. Even if you can read that it's the devil, it can actually help to modulate the signal when the wheel can't keep up(You can see but can't feel the torque delta) with the FFB signal. With that said, it's better to use the least amount possible.
All those part of the FFB signal are there, to various extent, based on the hardware you're using. It's a matter of understanding how the hardware can translate the FFB signal meaningfully.
Cheers!
This Short Article was shared by tennenbaum it's from another forum and will help to understand how the FFB system works... for me it was the key that unlocked the paradox!!!
Quote from tennenbaum linked post below this was the Eye opening FFB Changer for Me!!!
Link to original post below
http://www.racedepartment.com/thread...thread.105466/ (http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/the-project-cars-ffb-guide-thread.105466/)
Quote "a) Fx = 200, Fy = 100, Fz = 100, Mz = 100, Spindle Master Scale = 100
b) Fx = 100, Fy = 50, Fz = 50, Mz = 50, Spindle Master Scale = 200
Mathematically speaking a) and b) represent the exact same thing and will result in the exact same FFB mixing in terms of relative and overall output. This is because (as hinted at above) the Spindle Master Scale (Sms) is distributive such that Sms * (Fx, Fy, Fz, Mz) = (Sms * Fx, Sms * Fy, Sms * Fz, Sms * Mz). Again, take a moment to reflect on that.
Fy, Fz, and Mz all behave in the same way from a mathematical perspective.
It is worth noting that Tire Force is the global version of Spindle Master Scale. The global Tire Force default is 100, which again means 100% or simply 1.0. The reason there is both a global and a per car knob that do the exact same kind of scaling, is that different cars produce different forces as measured at the steering rack. So if you like the quality of the FFB overall, but think the wheel jerks around a bit too much in all the cars, try dialing down Tire Force. If you like the quality of the FFB overall, but you think one or two of the cars have too strong FFB, leave the global Tire Force at 100 and tweak the Spindle Master Scale for those two cars." End quote
(http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/the-project-cars-ffb-guide-thread.105466/)two more links shared by tennenbaum that shed more light about "Mz"
http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/the-project-cars-ffb-guide-thread.105466/#post-2182158
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?38744-Lets-talk-FFB-Post-and-Compare-short-Telemetry-Videos-and-what-FFB-tweek-used&p=1247377&viewfull=1#post1247377
Note: when using this PDF/TF/RAC 75 with a Fanatec Wheel I recommend using GM FFB 100 and starting with on wheel FFB 50% and + or - until the at the wheel FFB strength is right for you.
Note: When using any wheel other than a Fanatec wheel/Wheels that do not have on the wheel FFB Volume control at wheel FFB strength Must be adjusted with GM FFB!!! Start with GM FFB 75 and + or - until the at the wheel FFB strength is Right for you.
Note: Ignor the Game Master FFB 100 rule for all wheels!!!.You do Not lose Dynamic FFB Range if you use GM FFB at less than 100 this is a unproven Myth!!! GM FFB is after the Global System... It is the Last part of the FFB chain and Will Not cause in Game Clipping:no: GM FFB however if set too high can and will Cause Cioping at the wheel that can will Not be seen in the FFB Graph but will be clearly felt in the wheel.
GM FFB should be used to adjust the Final at the wheel FFB strength only:yes:
Note: The PDF settings can be used on XBox1 The game master FFB Must Be set at 25% to start with then Test and raise accordingly to get the at the wheel FFB strength that Feels best according to wheel used..CSW v2/CSW v2.5 is use GM FFB between 25% and 30%...There is no way that GM FFB 100% can be used on XBox1!!! The Xbox1 New FFB Prorocol is just tooo strong!!! Its stronger than PC & PS4 combined!!!
Note: 10/23/17 Menu spring strength and Low speed Steering coefficient should be set to 25 or lower ---> On Xbox1 these settings have a weird Effect and add much more power to the FFB strength they do Not work the same as they do on PC & PS4
GrimeyDog
07-09-2015, 04:09
Bentley Continental GT3
Same in car FFB!!! Stock un-tuned suspension No Assist.
One In Car FFB to Rule them All
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fW0ggsxQM3A
GrimeyDog
07-09-2015, 04:36
Mclaren GT3
Same in car FFB!!! Stock un-tuned suspension No Assist.
One In Car FFB to Rule them All
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv01wJc4--M
GrimeyDog
07-09-2015, 04:51
Using 1 in Car FFB setting is Much Easier and All Cars Remain with their own unique Feel and Driving Feel.
I also share your opinion about one FFB for all the cars, but imo it can t completely work since all the whole car mecanics is not modelled and some cars need some adjustments. I better think that we can use one FFB setting for the same class. Unfortunatelly, you can t have the same FFB components partitioning with kart and LMP1 cars.
Your FFB comparison topic is really interesting, maybe we could make some case studies and more understand some tune setup. Can you post another video with one of the previous car and different settings. I am interrested in understanding the effects of the suspension settings on car behavior. In particular I try to understand how to use telemetry for tuning. For exemple if there is no contact patch one one wheel...
Jack Spade
07-09-2015, 06:59
I donīt know if you selected these GT cars at random or at will to prove your theory. In general SMS adjusted the GT carīs default levels of forces in a similar range in contrary
to many others. In your examples the default levels are almost identical on these cars, so whatever the setting is FFB response is almost identical hence it proves nothing.
A fair comparison would be your favorite GT, the FA or Lotus, any Road Car, Protype and FWD, let alone the Karts.
GrimeyDog
07-09-2015, 07:49
I also share your opinion about one FFB for all the cars, but imo it can t completely work since all the whole car mecanics is not modelled and some cars need some adjustments. I better think that we can use one FFB setting for the same class. Unfortunatelly, you can t have the same FFB components partitioning with kart and LMP1 cars.
Your FFB comparison topic is really interesting, maybe we could make some case studies and more understand some tune setup. Can you post another video with one of the previous car and different settings. I am interrested in understanding the effects of the suspension settings on car behavior. In particular I try to understand how to use telemetry for tuning. For exemple if there is no contact patch one one wheel...
Nope I Can use it on All LMP1, Street Cars ETC... The Only Car that Needs its Own in Car FFB is Formula A... Everything Else works Fine with the same in car FFB...Even the Caterham!!!
GrimeyDog
07-09-2015, 07:56
I donīt know if you selected these GT cars at random or at will to prove your theory. In general SMS adjusted the GT carīs default levels of forces in a similar range in contrary
to many others. In your examples the default levels are almost identical on these cars, so whatever the setting is FFB response is almost identical hence it proves nothing.
A fair comparison would be your favorite GT, the FA or Lotus, any Road Car, Protype and FWD, let alone the Karts.
I Can Make as Many Videos as you like Prototype ETC.all Run the Same In Car FFB... I made the Tweek for the CSW V2 if you Have a V2 you can Test it for your self... Very Simple... The FFB just Represent the Forces you want to Feel in the Wheel... Bump Curbs How Much Weight Transfer Etc.
GrimeyDog
07-09-2015, 08:06
I donīt know if you selected these GT cars at random or at will to prove your theory. In general SMS adjusted the GT carīs default levels of forces in a similar range in contrary
to many others. In your examples the default levels are almost identical on these cars, so whatever the setting is FFB response is almost identical hence it proves nothing.
A fair comparison would be your favorite GT, the FA or Lotus, any Road Car, Protype and FWD, let alone the Karts.
The Radical Running Same in Car FFB settings...Im not trying to tweek or adjust the car suspension by means of FFB... that will give all cars a Canned Generic Feel...I simply set the FFB to bring out the FFB Effects i want to feel and the rest has to be done by tuning the suspension... note all cars driven in these Videos have stock un-tuned suspensions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWjFcQ-LhL0
GrimeyDog
07-09-2015, 08:08
I donīt know if you selected these GT cars at random or at will to prove your theory. In general SMS adjusted the GT carīs default levels of forces in a similar range in contrary
to many others. In your examples the default levels are almost identical on these cars, so whatever the setting is FFB response is almost identical hence it proves nothing.
A fair comparison would be your favorite GT, the FA or Lotus, any Road Car, Protype and FWD, let alone the Karts.
Formula Rookie Same in Car FFB
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK1wNeQaOE0
Titzon Toast
07-09-2015, 08:15
This has the makings of a great thread, I'm gonna try and post a video of my own FFB graph later on.
I know we use fairly different settings Grimey, we're all after the very same thing though.
GrimeyDog
07-09-2015, 08:26
I donīt know if you selected these GT cars at random or at will to prove your theory. In general SMS adjusted the GT carīs default levels of forces in a similar range in contrary
to many others. In your examples the default levels are almost identical on these cars, so whatever the setting is FFB response is almost identical hence it proves nothing.
A fair comparison would be your favorite GT, the FA or Lotus, any Road Car, Protype and FWD, let alone the Karts.
How about you post a Video of your in Car telemetry and lets compare Notes... any car you want put your best up there... The only car that needs its own in car FFB is Formula A so I will pass on formula A cars... im Not that big into Formula A so i have not put any time into developing a in car FFB for that car...Those cars feel Flat and Lifeless...but as i said all other cars work fine with the 1 in car FFB Setting.
also i did Not have to re work my FFB Tweek after update 3.0 Feels just fine the way it is using the default FFB profile...i didn't even bother adjusting the spring scale sliders... LOL how about that;)
since they added the spring scale sliders i can easily adjust my tweek to work with all wheels but i have Not had the time to pull my v2 wheel off my set up and make Tweek adjustments for the GT2 and CSR Elite wheel, i have them both...i will get around to it.
GrimeyDog
07-09-2015, 08:40
This has the makings of a great thread, I'm gonna try and post a video of my own FFB graph later on.
I know we use fairly different settings Grimey, we're all after the very same thing though.
This is your Doing Titzon Toast!!! LOL... your the one who told me how to use the PS4 share play... LOL... its 4:30 am N,Y time im going to get some shut eye... When i get up i will make a LMP1 Video running the same in car FFB...
Quote Originally Posted by Jack Spade View Post
I donīt know if you selected these GT cars at random or at will to prove your theory. In general SMS adjusted the GT carīs default levels of forces in a similar range in contrary
to many others. In your examples the default levels are almost identical on these cars, so whatever the setting is FFB response is almost identical hence it proves nothing.
A fair comparison would be your favorite GT, the FA or Lotus, any Road Car, Protype and FWD, let alone the Karts.
Here's the LMP1 i will do the Go Karts when i wake up... Pardon my sloppy driving i just threw the car around a bit to get a video...LOL... But the car handles Great...1 in car FFB setting to Rule them All!!! i just used GT3 its my favorite Car Class ATM... But i've driven them all and they all feel Great!!! 1 in car FFB tune all cars keep their own individual Driving Characteristics that are unique to that Car Because i did Not alter the FFB from 1 car to another... They are all governed by the same Global and in car FFB settings... IE: i do not manipulate car physics through FFB as a Means to a generic Suspension tweek... if a car sucks on Bumps, Curves, ETC then Tune the suspension Not the FFB.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-ddRLOniSg
As a comparison basis, please could you provide your FFB parameters.
I use the following ones for all the cars (but I sometimes adjust the Mz component depending on the category):
FFB: 100
TF:50
Fx:100
Fy:30
Fz:120
Mz:80
SoPLat:100
SoPDiff:120
Edit: I use now TF: 100 and FFB:30
Maybe I don't understand the telemetry but the signals in the videos are bouncing aggressively off the top and bottom of the graph which I thought was an indication of clipping.
I have a T300 and wouldn't want to risk running forces that high for fear it would kill my unit.
To me FFB is FFB once i found my Global settings i use the same in car FFB in every car and all cars feel Great and still have their own Handling identity that is unique to that car...The way i see it is the in car FFB is the ROAD... The Road doe's Not change because you change your car... What changes is the way every car will handle a Bumpy track, Sharp Curves or Rumble strips. I don't understand why some use different in car FFB for every car if the Global setting are st right...To me when you use different in Car FFB for every Car what you are doing is Creating Generic Road feel that takes away from the Natural Handling of that car... EX: GT3 Bentley and the GT3 Porsche Ride and handle very different... The Porsche is Rear Engine, the Bentley is Front Engine and they are different weight Bias... IMO The FFB is just FFB you set the effects that you want to feel and how strong you want certain effects to be... The rest Needs to be done with suspension tuning.
I posted something similar a while back. Crickets was the only the response. :) I totally agree with you on this, and, although I'm currently using Jack Spade's in-car settings, I've always considered it a sort of cheat in the physics sense, as far as simulation goes. My question was aimed more at online competition. If you can take the sluggishness out of a heavier car's wheel and make it feel like a lighter more nimble car, then doesn't affect the match? I get that the car is still modeled to spec, but the driver of the heavier car, should be forced to deal manhandling that boat around the track, but with a few adjustments, he can make the wheel easier to tame. Or he lessen the feel of the bumps in a car that rides a little rough. That doesn't seem right.
Jack Spade
07-09-2015, 16:26
Before a race driver jumps in the car some guys have tuned it for optimized performance on the track. Cars are different due to construction and so is the individual setup.
Itīs no different in this game. FFB is directly derived from individual car/tire physics, SMS interpreted including oddities and human errors to be precise. In consequence
the data the physics spits out is different from car to car and in order to deal with it for an optimized FFB performance SMS gave us the individual car FFB setup menus,
on PC tweaker files as an option. In an other posting I stressed the differences even among the same group of cars can be extremely. If all cars would work with the same
FFB setting SMS could have saved many months of development and a lot of money by just going without those menus. The character of a car doesnīt get destroyed by
an individual optimized FFB setup, the opposite is true, the character gets lost among the misinterpreted stream of data.
GrimeyDog
07-09-2015, 16:28
Maybe I don't understand the telemetry but the signals in the videos are bouncing aggressively off the top and bottom of the graph which I thought was an indication of clipping.
I have a T300 and wouldn't want to risk running forces that high for fear it would kill my unit.
When the line Goes all the way to the top or Bottom and stays there that is Clipping.
you can over drive your wheel to the point of burning out... I don't use any settings above 100 and My Global in Game FFB is only 25 That's it!!! and i run 98 Tire Force. you are not supposed to try and bolster the power of your wheel by feeding it Over Powered FFB signals!!! your wheel will not put out more FFB power than it was designed to put out that's why i don't understand using settings over 100:confused: when you add too much of 1 force then you are not leaving room to add other forces in and that's when the clipping starts.
when i was Fine tuning my Tweek i also used a digital Thermometer($35.00) to Monitor wheel motor temp because heat is a major concern. This pic is after 3+ hrs of Playing Pacrs... the temp will get a High as 105*F but quickly cools off...Before i had my Tweek perfected the wheel temp would get as High as 130*F
Im using the CSW V2 and even with the Game FFB set to 25 if you try to use the Wheel at 100% FFB you will Not be able to Drive!!! Its is that strong.
Here's a more simple way to look at tuning your wheel... Game FFB settings Global/In car (PS4/P.C/XB1 ETC) Represents a Amplifier your wheel Represents a Speaker if you turn the Volume up Too loud you will get distortion, too much Base you get more distortion, Treble,Mid range ETC you get the picture... its all about balance and knowing the limits of the wheel. Less = More Fidelity and that = more Road Feel.
GrimeyDog
07-09-2015, 16:52
Before a race driver jumps in the car some guys have tuned it for optimized performance on the track. Cars are different due to construction and so is the individual setup.
Itīs no different in this game. FFB is directly derived from individual car/tire physics, SMS interpreted including oddities and human errors to be precise. In consequence
the data the physics spits out is different from car to car and in order to deal with it for an optimized FFB performance SMS gave us the individual car FFB setup menus,
on PC tweaker files as an option. In an other posting I stressed the differences even among the same group of cars can be extremely. If all cars would work with the same
FFB setting SMS could have saved many months of development and a lot of money by just going without those menus. The character of a car doesnīt get destroyed by
an individual optimized FFB setup, the opposite is true, the character gets lost among the misinterpreted stream of data.
I dis agree...as i said The Road Doe's Not Change because your Driving a Different car... The Track Bumps, Curves ETC Remain the same for every car... The Road/Track is Not a Dynamic thing that changes per car... What is different is the way Each car will handle that Tracks Bumps and Curves according to its Driving characteristics... Front Engine, Mid Engine, Rear Engine, FWD, RWD, Weight, Weight Bias ETC. you get the picture. All cars in the game are Governed by the same Global FFB Settings and it is My Opinion that because All Cars are Ruled by the Same Global Settings that they Should All Share the same In Car FFB Settings...If a car Handles Sloppy on a Bumpy Curvy Track That is what Tuning the Suspension is for... Trying to change a cars Handling by manipulating in Car FFB is a Canned Generic Suspension Tweek.:barbershop_quartet_
LMP1,GT1, GT3,Touring ETC i Run the same in Car FFB settings and all cars feel Great... BTW i posted the LMP1 video for you running the same in Car FFB settings...any other car you care for me to try out and make a Video for you??? i will make a Video in the Clio cup for you next how about that... or if you have a CSW v2 i can Give you the tweek and you can try and see for your self:boxing:
Flaw3dGenius
07-09-2015, 17:02
What global FFB settings are you using Grimey
GrimeyDog
07-09-2015, 17:12
I will post them for you... I have to make a New PDF... The Settings have only been perfected on the CSW v2 at this point what wheel are you using??? im sure i can tweek the settings to work with every wheel but i need Test Pilots for Each wheel... its would be just a matter of lowering the in car Global FFB to match different wheels ... I like to do my Tweeking Hands on... my PSN tag is in my signature send me a friend invite.
Titzon Toast
07-09-2015, 17:17
Well Grimey, as you know, I'm of the opinion that the line shouldn't hit the top or the bottom at all unless you go over a bump or kerb.
As someone else pointed out above, I think your ffb line gets too close to the extremes a lot of the time in those videos.
I know we've argued about this plenty already but I'm throwing it out there again!
Spitfire77
07-09-2015, 17:37
Grimey runs a CSW with FFB at 25.. The graph could spend a day slamming the top and bottom and it won't hurt it, unless he has steering gain way high.
I know some like to run FFB low and Tire Force higher but I don't like the way the forces balance and prefer FFB close to or at 100 and lower Tire Force. This is personal preference neither is "correct" but they will feel different even if the same amount of absolute Force is output by the steering wheel's motor.
Either way is safe just don't run them all high on ps4.. Fisrt bad sign is your wheel's safe mode kicks in and drastically refeduces the amount of force it puts out. You should be able to race wildly, correcting with lots of counter steering, and hitting curbs/dirt, for an hour straight and not have the safe mode kick in.
Running individual car tweeks vs generic tweeks is also personal preference and there is no point in debating that one is more correct or better than the other. I prefer Jack's Fy+SoPLateral tweaks with slight adjustments here or there.
GrimeyDog
07-09-2015, 17:42
Well Grimey, as you know, I'm of the opinion that the line shouldn't hit the top or the bottom at all unless you go over a bump or kerb.
As someone else pointed out above, I think your ffb line gets too close to the extremes a lot of the time in those videos.
I know we've argued about this plenty already but I'm throwing it out there again!
Nope i get No Clipping at all...Remember that is a very small Graph its not a lot of room for movement in there...the line never stays on the top though...in fact the V2 can take much much more FFB than im feeding it but then it is Too Strong to Drive!!! my in game FFB is only 25 so im using only the power of the wheel to bolster and amplify the FFB Forces... To me the Tire Force is = to wheel weight i set that to 98 because i did not want to set it higher than the Relative adjust gain which is also 98... i set the relative adjust clamp at 92 that's lower than the stock global setting!!! That helps to avoid Clipping by clipping strong forces starting at 92 ... I have No settings that are over 100.
GrimeyDog
07-09-2015, 18:57
Grimey runs a CSW with FFB at 25.. The graph could spend a day slamming the top and bottom and it won't hurt it, unless he has steering gain way high.
I know some like to run FFB low and Tire Force higher but I don't like the way the forces balance and prefer FFB close to or at 100 and lower Tire Force. This is personal preference neither is "correct" but they will feel different even if the same amount of absolute Force is output by the steering wheel's motor.
Either way is safe just don't run them all high on ps4.. Fisrt bad sign is your wheel's safe mode kicks in and drastically refeduces the amount of force it puts out. You should be able to race wildly, correcting with lots of counter steering, and hitting curbs/dirt, for an hour straight and not have the safe mode kick in.
Running individual car tweeks vs generic tweeks is also personal preference and there is no point in debating that one is more correct or better than the other. I prefer Jack's Fy+SoPLateral tweaks with slight adjustments here or there.
Exactly...But the Way you set your FFB is Very Wheel Deoendent...But Keep in Mind that Higher levels of FFB input will Show forth the Higher Stronger Forces and Drown out some of the More Subtle Feelings... Ex: you will Feel Curbs/Rumble Strips but may Not Feel Tire Chatter/The point just before you loose Grip.... Some Times Less = More
I also Have a Classis 1.4 Tweek where i Run in game FFB at 85% ir even 100% But with the V2 100% is Not Needed the i dont want to Fight with the wheel and also alot of the Lesser Forces are Drowned out by the Stronger Forces using Higher in game FFB.
I Tested my Gt2 & CSR Elite wheel with my current FFB Tweek it works Great but i did Not leave it hooked up Long Enough to perfect the Tweek... Its alotta Work to Keep Changing wheel Bases out... I will Gladly Do a Party Chat with some one who has Patience and Speaks English well to Tweek the settings to their wheel. it would be just a Matter of Running Laps and Lowering the in Car Masters to fit the wheel. Ex: I keep my in Car FFB masters at 100 because my Global Settings are Set Low if i Move the In Car FFB Masters to 98 its a Notable Difference with the v2 wheel!!!
also im Not debating just expressing my Different method and View about FFB...what a Car Should feel like is purely based on personal taste.
My point was and is there Can be 1 in Car FFB to Rule all Cars and i Have the Proof.... V2 wheel and My Tweek any one with a V2 wheel Playing PCars on PS4 is welcom to try it.
My PSN Tag is in my Signature send me a Friend inv.
Grimey runs a CSW with FFB at 25.. The graph could spend a day slamming the top and bottom and it won't hurt it, unless he has steering gain way high.
I don't understand how you draw this conclusion, if you run out of room on the graph the signal will be clipping. It could be Grimey has achieved a safe level of clipping for his wheel but so far there is only his thermometer to gauge this.
There are a number of different settings that multiply the signal, so starting with FFB at 25 means little in respect of the overall force but more likely indicates a reduction in the dynamic range.
Titzon Toast
07-09-2015, 19:23
Nope i get No Clipping at all...Remember that is a very small Graph its not a lot of room for movement in there...the line never stays on the top though...in fact the V2 can take much much more FFB than im feeding it but then it is Too Strong to Drive!!! my in game FFB is only 25 so im using only the power of the wheel to bolster and amplify the FFB Forces... To me the Tire Force is = to wheel weight i set that to 98 because i did not want to set it higher than the Relative adjust gain which is also 98... i set the relative adjust clamp at 92 that's lower than the stock global setting!!! That helps to avoid Clipping by clipping strong forces starting at 92 ... I have No settings that are over 100.
A small graph?! What does that mean dude? If you're constantly bouncing off the very top and the very bottom then that seems wrong to me.
Also, when your graph is in the middle when you're going straight, the line is still very jagged looking.
I think having the Master Scale up to 100 is too much.
Why can't some of the Devs jump in here and clear things up for us?
We've been left to our own devices since day one trying to decipher all of this.
Madness!
Spitfire77
07-09-2015, 19:25
Try it... Set FFB to 25. Then see how high you have to set other things to get the motor in your wheel to work hard. Those CSW can put out a lot of force for a long period of time, more than any settings he has posted in this thread or others.
GrimeyDog
07-09-2015, 19:48
I don't understand how you draw this conclusion, if you run out of room on the graph the signal will be clipping. It could be Grimey has achieved a safe level of clipping for his wheel but so far there is only his thermometer to gauge this.
There are a number of different settings that multiply the signal, so starting with FFB at 25 means little in respect of the overall force but more likely indicates a reduction in the dynamic range.
I dont get any Clipping...The trick is Not trying to increase the power of the wheel by Feeding it High FFB signals... the wheel was designed to put out a certain Max FFB yes you can get more by feeding it a Higher FFB signal but that puts your wheel in the Danger zone... I Feed the wheel a FFB signal and let the wheel amplify the signal power according to the wheels power capabilities... IMO when you feed your wheel High FFB signal you are over driving your wheel and it will have all kinds of distortion... EX: same as if you send 100wats to a 50watt speaker its going to crackle and pop with all kinds of distortion and eventually Burn out... its the same principle. also we don't know how sensitive the FFB meter is but what we do know is that it measures Current that is sent to the wheel and sent back to the System IE: it measures resistance to electrical Flow... 3 different wheels i tested and they all had Different FFB meter levels with the same settings... Conclusion its measuring How much FFB Each wheel can take... when i ran the same settings on my GT2 wheel the Graph stayed pinned to the top i reduced the in car masters and was able to get a decent stable FFB Level... but i did Not tweek long enough to get the final #'s... Tooo Much tweeking i was going into Tweeker burn out:mad: I had the same results with the CSR Elite but it was able to take Much more FFB than the GT2... its all about understanding and knowing the limits of the wheel you use.
GrimeyDog
07-09-2015, 19:55
A small graph?! What does that mean dude? If you're constantly bouncing off the very top and the very bottom then that seems wrong to me.
Also, when your graph is in the middle when you're going straight, the line is still very jagged looking.
I think having the Master Scale up to 100 is too much.
Why can't some of the Devs jump in here and clear things up for us?
We've been left to our own devices since day one trying to decipher all of this.
Madness!
yes the line is moving when im going straight but look at the dash board of the car its bouncing around because of road Bumps and you can even Hear the bumps on the straights listen to the car bouncing and bottoming out on the straights... at 100mph in a real sports car you feel the road bumps too and while driving even though your going straight your hand is always moving the wheel a bit to compensate for uneven road surface.
Take a Look at the Video of the LMP1 Marek i posted... Its very easy to see the Camera shaking and turn the Volume up you will Hear the car bottoming out...and that's a stock un-tuned suspension.
Then look at the Video of the Mclaren GT3 the line doesn't move as much but you will Notice the dash Board isnt shaking as much either and you don't hear the car bottoming out...its a very stable car.
-Brick_Top-
07-09-2015, 20:23
I donīt know if you selected these GT cars at random or at will to prove your theory. In general SMS adjusted the GT carīs default levels of forces in a similar range in contrary
to many others. In your examples the default levels are almost identical on these cars, so whatever the setting is FFB response is almost identical hence it proves nothing.
A fair comparison would be your favorite GT, the FA or Lotus, any Road Car, Protype and FWD, let alone the Karts.
Probably ran those cars by choice. I run grimeys settings and hold a few top 30 times even a top 20 or two. And before you ask nope not gt class. In formula a and lmp. Haven't tried the karts but I can run any car on his settings and have a great feel and set top times too. Don't know about other wheels but a single ffb approach can defo be achieved on the csw v2. 100% for sure.
GrimeyDog
07-09-2015, 21:25
Before a race driver jumps in the car some guys have tuned it for optimized performance on the track. Cars are different due to construction and so is the individual setup.
Itīs no different in this game. FFB is directly derived from individual car/tire physics, SMS interpreted including oddities and human errors to be precise. In consequence
the data the physics spits out is different from car to car and in order to deal with it for an optimized FFB performance SMS gave us the individual car FFB setup menus,
on PC tweaker files as an option. In an other posting I stressed the differences even among the same group of cars can be extremely. If all cars would work with the same
FFB setting SMS could have saved many months of development and a lot of money by just going without those menus. The character of a car doesnīt get destroyed by
an individual optimized FFB setup, the opposite is true, the character gets lost among the misinterpreted stream of data.
Here is the Clio Cup Driving at Watkins Glen same track and same In cars FFB setting...I did increase the FX, FY and the sop LAT... I just doubled the # Value because the Steering wheel was too light, the Clio is a FWD Car with Skinny tires so i needed to Add to Give the steering wheel more weight... but it did drive and give Nice Feel but the wheel was too light for my taste
https://youtu.be/EKSOVcOnjMY
Titzon Toast
07-09-2015, 22:29
https://youtu.be/ikuHHijiSCY
I made some quick videos this evening to show what certain settings can do to the FFB graph.
This one has Zero TF, FFB, Master, Sop, and spindle values. Check out that graph.
I hope this works!
https://youtu.be/cx0Fpy5UFD8
This one has FFB @ 35 and TF @ 68.
Everything else at Zero.
This third video has the Spindle and SOP values turned up a good bit.
https://youtu.be/6_LAEXiOsLo
For this last one I dialed the Master and SOP scales down a bit and a couple of other quick changes to combat the clipping.
I'll fine tune it tomorrow and show the settings.
https://youtu.be/QF7qLs0fFUI
I literally fired these laps and videos together in five minutes, I used a Bone stock RUF.
EDIT.
I should add, a few weeks back I spent hours turning up each individual Spindle and SOP setting to find out exactly what effect it had on my wheel and the graph itself. I learned a lot from it.
EDIT 2
I found this guide online, very interesting.
"Basically: Master scale: don't up it too much, 26 is fine in most cases."
Fx: FFB when acc/braking
Fy: How heavy your wheel feels when cornering
Fz: How much FFB over bumps*and kerbs
Mz: How much FFB when losing traction
Important to keep in mind when checking the telemetry graph that the final FFB control (the slider in Configuration) is not part of the calculations or results shown in the graph. The FFB master comes after the FFB Monitor (telemetry), so nothing you see in the telemetry graph has anything to do with where the final FFB master slider is set. You can test this by turning it to 0 and driving a car with the telemetry on, you will see all of the telemetry data unchanged, regardless of where the final FFB control is set. You will have no ffb feeling at the wheel of course, because there is no output, but as you will see, the ffb calculations are completely independent of the FFB slider, which is simply the final output to the wheel.
This means if someone has their graph close to clipping, but their FFB master low, the final output to the wheel is still being very kind to the wheel, without much force going on. Conversely, if they have graph results close to clipping and they are driving their FFB master high, there is a good chance they are sending their wheel into clipping at the output, despite the graph being within the threshold. The telemetry is showing us the calculations between Tire Force and Steering Gain only, in the following chain... (car/physics) -> (Tire Force) -> (car FFB department/tuning) -> (global FFB wheel presets, Steering Gain) -> (FFB monitor) -> (FFB master) -> wheel
Titzon Toast
08-09-2015, 07:02
Important to keep in mind when checking the telemetry graph that the final FFB control (the slider in Configuration) is not part of the calculations or results shown in the graph. The FFB master comes after the FFB Monitor (telemetry), so nothing you see in the telemetry graph has anything to do with where the final FFB master slider is set. You can test this by turning it to 0 and driving a car with the telemetry on, you will see all of the telemetry data unchanged, regardless of where the final FFB control is set. You will have no ffb feeling at the wheel of course, because there is no output, but as you will see, the ffb calculations are completely independent of the FFB slider, which is simply the final output to the wheel.
This means if someone has their graph close to clipping, but their FFB master low, the final output to the wheel is still being very kind to the wheel, without much force going on. Conversely, if they have graph results close to clipping and they are driving their FFB master high, there is a good chance they are sending their wheel into clipping at the output, despite the graph being within the threshold. The telemetry is showing us the calculations between Tire Force and Steering Gain only, in the following chain... (car/physics) -> (Tire Force) -> (car FFB department/tuning) -> (global FFB wheel presets, Steering Gain) -> (FFB monitor) -> (FFB master) -> wheel
That's very interesting, thank you sharing.
Is there any chance you could post a video here for us please?
Important to keep in mind when checking the telemetry graph that the final FFB control (the slider in Configuration) is not part of the calculations or results shown in the graph. The FFB master comes after the FFB Monitor (telemetry), so nothing you see in the telemetry graph has anything to do with where the final FFB master slider is set. You can test this by turning it to 0 and driving a car with the telemetry on, you will see all of the telemetry data unchanged, regardless of where the final FFB control is set. You will have no ffb feeling at the wheel of course, because there is no output, but as you will see, the ffb calculations are completely independent of the FFB slider, which is simply the final output to the wheel.
This means if someone has their graph close to clipping, but their FFB master low, the final output to the wheel is still being very kind to the wheel, without much force going on. Conversely, if they have graph results close to clipping and they are driving their FFB master high, there is a good chance they are sending their wheel into clipping at the output, despite the graph being within the threshold. The telemetry is showing us the calculations between Tire Force and Steering Gain only, in the following chain... (car/physics) -> (Tire Force) -> (car FFB department/tuning) -> (global FFB wheel presets, Steering Gain) -> (FFB monitor) -> (FFB master) -> wheel
So, if one parameter has to be set to 100, it is Tire Force and not FFB as suggested by players?
Jack Spade
08-09-2015, 07:25
Here is the Clio Cup Driving at Watkins Glen same track and same In cars FFB setting...I did increase the FX, FY and the sop LAT... I just doubled the # Value because the Steering wheel was too light, the Clio is a FWD Car with Skinny tires so i needed to Add to Give the steering wheel more weight... but it did drive and give Nice Feel but the wheel was too light for my taste
https://youtu.be/EKSOVcOnjMY
You proved yourself your own theory of a single setting for all cars donīt hold true, just one exception to the rule makes your theory obsolete already.
So, if one parameter has to be set to 100, it is Tire Force and not FFB as suggested by players?
Well, nothing has to be set to 100 on consoles, but it could be helpful to look at TF as input, and Steering Gain as output (to telemetry) and FFB as output to the wheel. We have to remember that the strong suggestion to set FFB at 100 has come from knowledgable guys, running pCars on PC. They have one more final output control than those of us on consoles, they have the Control Panel driver for their wheels. Depending on the wheel, this final output defaults to various amounts. For example, for a T500, I believe it is 60, and a T300, 75. So on PC, the in-game FFB has been suggested to be set to 100, which will then be attenuated by the Control Panel in their driver. For them, with the in-game FFB at 100, and their driver Control Panel set at 75, they have a final output of 75 to the wheel. We can only assume that it would give console players a similar amount of force to our one FFB master set to 75. I've heard one guy somewhere in these threads suggest that that's the case on Xbox, it would be good to have it confirmed by someone who has both PC and PS4 versions.
For those of us on consoles, we have only the FFB master in Configuration. I know that with a T300 on PS4, this defaults to 75. Since this control's effect comes after our telemetry, we have no way of measuring what it is doing to the final output, so it may be the case that we are better off erring on the side of caution, rather than risking damage to the wheel. That said, some console players like the feel of their FFB master set high, and they attenuate enough at other points (TF, in-car Master scale, spindle forces, compression, Steering Gain), and with enough attenuation, it's highly likely that they are safe from clipping at the final output, especially if overall they are going for a lighter feel, and the wheel doesn't seem to be haemorrhaging.
Jack Spade
08-09-2015, 08:15
Well, nothing has to be set to 100 on consoles, but it could be helpful to look at TF as input, and Steering Gain as output (to telemetry) and FFB as output to the wheel. We have to remember that the strong suggestion to set FFB at 100 has come from knowledgable guys, running pCars on PC. They have one more final output control than those of us on consoles, they have the Control Panel driver for their wheels. Depending on the wheel, this final output defaults to various amounts. For example, for a T500, I believe it is 60, and a T300, 75. So on PC, the in-game FFB has been suggested to be set to 100, which will then be attenuated by the Control Panel in their driver. For them, with the in-game FFB at 100, and their driver Control Panel set at 75, they have a final output of 75 to the wheel. We can only assume that it would give console players a similar amount of force to our one FFB master set to 75. I've heard one guy somewhere in these threads suggest that that's the case on Xbox, it would be good to have it confirmed by someone who has both PC and PS4 versions.
For those of us on consoles, we have only the FFB master in Configuration. I know that with a T300 on PS4, this defaults to 75. Since this control's effect comes after our telemetry, we have no way of measuring what it is doing to the final output, so it may be the case that we are better off erring on the side of caution, rather than risking damage to the wheel. That said, some console players like the feel of their FFB master set high, and they attenuate enough at other points (TF, in-car Master scale, spindle forces, compression, Steering Gain), and with enough attenuation, it's highly likely that they are safe from clipping at the final output, especially if overall they are going for a lighter feel, and the wheel doesn't seem to be haemorrhaging.
In addition to that, FFB strength in game and FFB level in drivers, or whatever they call it, should be at least at 100%, lower values increase the deadzone and lower
FFB dynamic on the wheel. Set Steering Gain at 1.0 and adjust the global output force with TF, watch for clipping of course, this will give best performance.
In addition to that, FFB strength in game and FFB level in drivers, or whatever they call it, should be at least at 100%, lower values increase the deadzone and lower
FFB dynamic on the wheel. Set Steering Gain at 1.0 and adjust the global output force with TF, watch for clipping of course, this will give best performance.
The problem we have on consoles Jack, is that we have no equivalent of the driver (Control Panel) Overall Strength of Forces output level. We have only Steering Gain, and FFB master...there is no way to attenuate the final output to the wheel, the way that the PC Control Panel driver does. So having our FFB master at 100 would be close or equivalent to having the wheel driver Control Panel on PC set to 100, as well as the in-game FFB on 100. It seems that on console, our FFB master might be the equivalent of the Overall Strength of Forces control in the driver software. At the very least, there is one less output control to what you guys have on PC.
T300RS on PS4
Well, after wahwah's initial post I ran upstairs and flipped TF (was 55) to 100 and FFB to 55 (was 100) and I got a much more dramatic graph. So explains how Grimey is not getting clipping and Spitfire's claim also.
Steering felt much lighter and the notchy feel that has crept in with Jack's recent settings has eased somewhat. I raised FFB to 60 and the steering weight felt better with a little more wheel vibration off the track surface (Oulton). It was just a few laps so nothing scientific.
Jack Spade
08-09-2015, 09:22
The problem we have on consoles Jack, is that we have no equivalent of the driver (Control Panel) Overall Strength of Forces output level. We have only Steering Gain, and FFB master...there is no way to attenuate the final output to the wheel, the way that the PC Control Panel driver does. So having our FFB master at 100 would be close or equivalent to having the wheel driver Control Panel on PC set to 100, as well as the in-game FFB on 100. It seems that on console, our FFB master might be the equivalent of the Overall Strength of Forces control in the driver software. At the very least, there is one less output control to what you guys have on PC.
But you do have Tire Force, donīt you?
All Iīm trying to say is you donīt need the global FFB strength thingy in game and driver as TF really adjusts the software calculated global FFB output
and Steering Gain too.
I don't understand why some use different in car FFB for every car if the Global setting are st right..
Because different cars produce different amounts of Fx, Fy, Fz and Mz forces depending on a multitude of factors.. like tire type (remember that each tire type is a different "model"), down force which directly affects contact patch size and thus how the tire outputs forces etc. Once all these forces go into your non-linear global settings you'll need to "massage" the values to get the information you want out of it.
You can of course simplify everything and try to force yourself to find a global FFB setting that works for everything but ultimately you are compromising somewhere. By tweaking every individual car you can make them truly individual and enhance the strengths and diminish the weaknesses of that particular chassis/tire combination.
In short: We tweak because we can and it helps having "perfect" FFB for each car. I can run much more consistent and faster laps when a car has FFB that "makes sense" and the only way I've found a way to make it so is to tweak each car individually. This is the first simulator where this is possible, as far as I know. Is it "realistic"? Hell no.. we can probably feel a lot more nuances through the steering wheel than a real driver but then again a real driver feels a lot more through g-forces that are missing for us.. so I'd say it evens it out. :)
But you do have Tire Force, donīt you?
All Iīm trying to say is you donīt need the global FFB strength thingy in game and driver as TF really adjusts the software calculated global FFB output
and Steering Gain too.
Eh? TF is way more complex than that. Tire Force is the multiplier before any of the global FFB calculations. The final global output force, post mixing, is the newly added Steering Gain. At least as far as I can understand it.
Basically it boils down to this: If you are running highly non-linear global FFB wheel settings (like Relative Adjust or Soft Clip.. or both together!), a tiny tweak of TF can completely change the overall FFB feel because it shifts the range of the forces prior to the global processing. If you want to simply lower or increase the gain of the FFB to your wheel, without actually changing anything throughout the non-linear system, you'll have to use Steering Gain.
Well, nothing has to be set to 100 on consoles, but it could be helpful to look at TF as input, and Steering Gain as output (to telemetry) and FFB as output to the wheel. We have to remember that the strong suggestion to set FFB at 100 has come from knowledgable guys, running pCars on PC. They have one more final output control than those of us on consoles, they have the Control Panel driver for their wheels.
This is correct and very worth repeating.
On the PC, the in-game main FFB strength parameter should always be set to 100. On the consoles this seems to be different and behaves probably like the Control Panel FFB strength parameter on PC.
I'm not sure if things have changed but you CAN actually see the effect of setting FFB strength to less than 100 on the actual telemetry. It simply scales the whole thing. If you set FFB Strength to 50 the FFB telemetry screen value is basically cut in half. Important to note is that this is the "ceiling" of the FFB output.. so clipping will still occur, it just happens to clip at half the output instead. So at least on PC the FFB Strength slider is completely useless and should thus always and forever be left at 100. If you do not, you WILL lose dynamic range. However, on Consoles it seems to work differently and should probably be treated as an output control.. but this is yet to be verified. If you want to be absolutely 100% sure of not losing dynamic range, leave it at 100 and instead use the Steering Gain control to set your overall FFB strength (but take care of not clipping too much!).
Well Grimey, as you know, I'm of the opinion that the line shouldn't hit the top or the bottom at all unless you go over a bump or kerb.
As someone else pointed out above, I think your ffb line gets too close to the extremes a lot of the time in those videos.
I know we've argued about this plenty already but I'm throwing it out there again!
It's worth repeating indeed. While cornering you should not have the line anywhere close to the top. Only during violent bumps/kerbs should the line perhaps clip a bit (because that "shaking" "bumping" information is so short and contains irrelevant information.. so no need for the exact information of the bump being duplicated). While during cornering you want every single bit of information. If the line is pegged to the top or bottom you miss all the subtle details that the simulator can give you.
This is correct and very worth repeating.
On the PC, the in-game main FFB strength parameter should always be set to 100. On the consoles this seems to be different and behaves probably like the Control Panel FFB strength parameter on PC.
I'm not sure if things have changed but you CAN actually see the effect of setting FFB strength to less than 100 on the actual telemetry. It simply scales the whole thing. If you set FFB Strength to 50 the FFB telemetry screen value is basically cut in half. Important to note is that this is the "ceiling" of the FFB output.. so clipping will still occur, it just happens to clip at half the output instead. So at least on PC the FFB Strength slider is completely useless and should thus always and forever be left at 100. If you do not, you WILL lose dynamic range. However, on Consoles it seems to work differently and should probably be treated as an output control.. but this is yet to be verified. If you want to be absolutely 100% sure of not losing dynamic range, leave it at 100 and instead use the Steering Gain control to set your overall FFB strength (but take care of not clipping too much!).
This is very helpful and thank you for chiming in, bmanic. I can confirm, at least on PS4, that even with the FFB master set to 0, the telemetry is unchanged. With absolutely no feeling in the wheel, the telemetry is still responding to all tire forces, the same as it does with the FFB master on 100 or 50 or any other setting. So perhaps it is as you suggest, that our console master FFB control is like the Control Panel FFB Strength parameter, and we simply don't have an equivalent to the PC in-game master. Steering Gain is our last chance to attenuate forces prior to the FFB Monitor (telemetry), and the FFB master is the final output to the wheel, post telemetry.
I concur with rams1de's comment that with a T300 on PS4, with the FFB master at full and Tire Force attenuated, , there is an ugly, grainy 'notchiness' in the wheel in cornering, reminiscent of a Logitech wheel, and no amount of smoothing will get rid of it, nor will attenuating Steering Gain, until you get to the point that the wheel is so light that very few forces are being input from the tire model.
The question then remains as to what is the optimum output setting for the console FFB master. Should we be taking the same approach as if it were the Strength control in a PC Control Panel, and then using Steering Gain as our output to both the telemetry and the wheel? If so, then a setting of 100 on our FFB slider is 25% hotter than the default for the wheel, at least in the case of the T300. Verification of all of this could be of great benefit to those of us on consoles.
GrimeyDog
08-09-2015, 10:47
You proved yourself your own theory of a single setting for all cars donīt hold true, just one exception to the rule makes your theory obsolete already.
The Car Drove Fine... I just wanted the Wheel Heavier so i just doubled the # Values for the setting Front Tire Feel and SOP Weight Tranfer Feel... So the New Fule of thumb would be to Double those Values for FWD Cars...But i Guess your Right but Still Much simpler than Having to Total in Car FFB for every Car.
I would be Very interested in Seing your Video of your FFB on the Cars that i Tested... We Could Compair Notes... Im Not interested in getting into a Edison VS Tesla Debate at the end of the day No one cares who Had the best method of Creating Electricity... All we care about is it works.
If i may ask What wheel are you using??? and what Plat form do you use??? Im Mainly PS4 i do PC also but mostly PS4 because i like the ease of plug and play.
IMO It is impossible to create 1 FFB for all wheels... The Format can be the Same but the FFB Values will Have to be different because different Brand wheels have Different Performance Limits and input Sensitivity... What i suggest is Creating a Team of FFB Tweekers 1 for every Wheel across the 3 platforms PC, PS4, XB1 and Compare Notes then Post Specific FFB Tunes for the Specific Wheel and Platform... My FFB Tweek is CSW v2/ v1 Based for the PS4 It can beTweeked for the CSR E and the GT2 ... PC, XB1 more than likely put out + or - when it comes to Fx,Fy, Fz, Mz ETC.. I doubt all platforms are putting out Equal/Same forces for the FFB.... So i Suggest a Team Effort to Create FFB for All Wheels... what do you say?
Jack Spade
08-09-2015, 10:55
Eh? TF is way more complex than that. Tire Force is the multiplier before any of the global FFB calculations. The final global output force, post mixing, is the newly added Steering Gain. At least as far as I can understand it.
Basically it boils down to this: If you are running highly non-linear global FFB wheel settings (like Relative Adjust or Soft Clip.. or both together!), a tiny tweak of TF can completely change the overall FFB feel because it shifts the range of the forces prior to the global processing. If you want to simply lower or increase the gain of the FFB to your wheel, without actually changing anything throughout the non-linear system, you'll have to use Steering Gain.
I know all that, but the result is the same. BTW Steering Gain is nothing new to the game, in the F1 menu for ages default for all wheels 1.0 the maximum value at the time.
GrimeyDog
08-09-2015, 11:12
Because different cars produce different amounts of Fx, Fy, Fz and Mz forces depending on a multitude of factors.. like tire type (remember that each tire type is a different "model"), down force which directly affects contact patch size and thus how the tire outputs forces etc. Once all these forces go into your non-linear global settings you'll need to "massage" the values to get the information you want out of it.
You can of course simplify everything and try to force yourself to find a global FFB setting that works for everything but ultimately you are compromising somewhere. By tweaking every individual car you can make them truly individual and enhance the strengths and diminish the weaknesses of that particular chassis/tire combination.
In short: We tweak because we can and it helps having "perfect" FFB for each car. I can run much more consistent and faster laps when a car has FFB that "makes sense" and the only way I've found a way to make it so is to tweak each car individually. This is the first simulator where this is possible, as far as I know. Is it "realistic"? Hell no.. we can probably feel a lot more nuances through the steering wheel than a real driver but then again a real driver feels a lot more through g-forces that are missing for us.. so I'd say it evens it out. :)
Ok i can see the logic in this... I had to Double the Road Feel and SOP Lat in the Clio Cup to get the steering wheel weight back... but other than the Wheel weight being light the car Drove fine and the FFB was the same...so my New Rule of thumb is to double those values for FWD only....What is talking about is i see some #'s that people use are very Extreem 140+ on some settings.. I have No FFB Masters or FFB Forces set above 100. When setting 1 setting too High you dont leave Room for other Forces... Even Doubling the #'s to get wheel weight on the Clio i set 4, 60, and 20 and all Forces are present and the Wheel is Very Strong with No Clipping issues... The V2 can take Much More but then its Too Strong to Drive... I could Never do a Quick Left Quick Right at 100% FFB. Yes some wheels Need More input to provide Good FFB but thats over driving the wheel and you lose alot of Subtle feel when setting FFB to extreem levels.
GrimeyDog
08-09-2015, 12:53
This is correct and very worth repeating.
On the PC, the in-game main FFB strength parameter should always be set to 100. On the consoles this seems to be different and behaves probably like the Control Panel FFB strength parameter on PC.
I'm not sure if things have changed but you CAN actually see the effect of setting FFB strength to less than 100 on the actual telemetry. It simply scales the whole thing. If you set FFB Strength to 50 the FFB telemetry screen value is basically cut in half. Important to note is that this is the "ceiling" of the FFB output.. so clipping will still occur, it just happens to clip at half the output instead. So at least on PC the FFB Strength slider is completely useless and should thus always and forever be left at 100. If you do not, you WILL lose dynamic range. However, on Consoles it seems to work differently and should probably be treated as an output control.. but this is yet to be verified. If you want to be absolutely 100% sure of not losing dynamic range, leave it at 100 and instead use the Steering Gain control to set your overall FFB strength (but take care of not clipping too much!).
I Agree with this Thoery 100%
Also it would Make Sense for Console users to a Have FFB Tweek Section for their Specific Wheel and Console they use...EX: i use PS4 what works on PS4 may Not work on PC or XBox... It makes sense to Seperate the FFB Tweeks by Platfom used... No one can Not Say 100% that their Tweek will work on a platform or Wheel they dont use because all platforms/Wheels have Different FFB output levels.
rocafella1978
08-09-2015, 13:16
I find it very intereresting to read all the communities experiences, but what bothers me most and speaks volumes in lack of feedback and reflects negatively on SMS as a studio IMHO that there has been no response, zero explanations and lack of guidance in regards to FFB. which leads me to believe and 90% sure that they don't know what all the dynamic values/ effects are and that's why kept out of these threads, instead of posting or replying, staying out of it. no information is better than half ***** information and not knowing for sure...IMO at least what I truly believe. (since release there has been no input/ explanation of the FFB stuff by SMS staff and/or their Devs!) so hats off to all trying to decrypt this ***** ***** of a system.
Titzon Toast
08-09-2015, 13:28
Ok i can see the logic in this... I had to Double the Road Feel and SOP Lat in the Clio Cup to get the steering wheel weight back... but other than the Wheel weight being light the car Drove fine and the FFB was the same...so my New Rule of thumb is to double those values for FWD only....What is talking about is i see some #'s that people use are very Extreem 140+ on some settings.. I have No FFB Masters or FFB Forces set above 100. When setting 1 setting too High you dont leave Room for other Forces... Even Doubling the #'s to get wheel weight on the Clio i set 4, 60, and 20 and all Forces are present and the Wheel is Very Strong with No Clipping issues... The V2 can take Much More but then its Too Strong to Drive... I could Never do a Quick Left Quick Right at 100% FFB. Yes some wheels Need More input to provide Good FFB but thats over driving the wheel and you lose alot of Subtle feel when setting FFB to extreem levels.
But if the Spindle scales go up to 200, then what harm in putting one or two of them up past 100? It's only at 50% at 100.
Also, I would consider the Master Scale turned up to near full to be a bit extreme. Surly that would Rob some of the subtlety we're all after.
GrimeyDog
08-09-2015, 14:26
But if the Spindle scales go up to 200, then what harm in putting one or two of them up past 100? It's only at 50% at 100.
Also, I would consider the Master Scale turned up to near full to be a bit extreme. Surly that would Rob some of the subtlety we're all after.
I see it Differetly... I see 100 as 100% and anything over is overdrive...there is No way to Confirm Either point of View because SMS has Never Gave us the Specific details on that... But my Finding/Theory is based on the V2 Wheel is sooo Strong with in Game FFB settings at 100% that 100 = 100% Power also with all the Clipping issues with other wheels with settings at or above 100 it leads me to believe that over 100 is Overdrive jmo... there are sooo many settings to factor in my belief is that by overdriving 1 you are Not leaving Room for another setting that works together with that setting to Creat a balance and a Good FFB feel.... But FFB is a matter of personal taste... what feels Great to 1 feels Horrible to another.
Ive also tested my CSR E & My Gt2 wheel and with my Current FFB Tweek i would have to turn my in Car FFB settings Down to about 60 to avoid Clipping issues....My Tire force 98/FFB 25 and Global settings could stay the same.
Titzon Toast
08-09-2015, 14:40
I see it Differetly... I see 100 as 100% and anything over is overdrive...there is No way to Confirm Either point of View because SMS has Never Gave us the Specific details on that... But my Finding/Theory is based on the V2 Wheel is sooo Strong with in Game FFB settings at 100% that 100 = 100% Power also with all the Clipping issues with other wheels with settings at or above 100 it leads me to believe that over 100 is Overdrive jmo... there are sooo many settings to factor in my belief is that by overdriving 1 you are Not leaving Room for another setting that works together with that setting to Creat a balance and a Good FFB feel.... But FFB is a matter of personal taste... what feels Great to 1 feels Horrible to another.
Ive also tested my CSR E & My Gt2 wheel and with my Current FFB Tweek i would have to turn my in Car FFB settings Down to about 60 to avoid Clipping issues....My Tire force 98/FFB 25 and Global settings could stay the same.
You see it differently?! If the scale goes from 0 - 200 then 100 is 50% man. That's a given.
So long as the Master and Gain remain low enough I don't see a problem with it.
You're bang on about the lack of proper explanation from SMS though. I haven't even seen anyone of them posting for a long time around here.
Seems strange.
In addition to that, FFB strength in game and FFB level in drivers, or whatever they call it, should be at least at 100%, lower values increase the deadzone and lower
FFB dynamic on the wheel. Set Steering Gain at 1.0 and adjust the global output force with TF, watch for clipping of course, this will give best performance.
I agree. This has produced the best results for me in terms of overall feel. When I lower FF and raise TF, the wheel does feel smoother, but in a generic, numb kind of way, delivering far less detail.
I know all that, but the result is the same.
.. no it is not. That's what I was trying to say. The result is NOT the same because one happens PRIOR to the global signal processing and the other happens dead last. Please lets not confuse people more. These are not the same at all and the difference can be DRASTIC.
Jack Spade
08-09-2015, 18:06
GrimeyDog, for comparison the Clio/Watkins Glen.
https://youtu.be/epMK0EkJTLs
lancashirelad
08-09-2015, 18:10
I don't want to start a conspiracy theory but what if all these force feedback settings were not supposed to be in the finished game? Maybe because they had to release it in a " unfinished" state they left all the development force feedback tools for us to see and use. I can't understand why anyone from sms has not said anything in the two big forum threads on force feedback. I don't think we were supposed to work this all out ourselves given the complexity and amount of settings on this one aspect of the game. I'm reasonably happy with my settings and have given up fiddling to concentrate on racing. I'm loving the game despite some annoying bugs. It's without doubt the best racing experience I've ever had. Some feedback on the feedback from sms would be welcome though.
I find it very intereresting to read all the communities experiences, but what bothers me most and speaks volumes in lack of feedback and reflects negatively on SMS as a studio IMHO that there has been no response, zero explanations and lack of guidance in regards to FFB. which leads me to believe and 90% sure that they don't know what all the dynamic values/ effects are and that's why kept out of these threads, instead of posting or replying, staying out of it. no information is better than half ***** information and not knowing for sure...IMO at least what I truly believe. (since release there has been no input/ explanation of the FFB stuff by SMS staff and/or their Devs!) so hats off to all trying to decrypt this ***** ***** of a system.
This is not entirely true. AJ, the creator of the FFB system and the tire physics, has provided us with a quite detailed PDF manual of exactly how the FFB system works (it has however not been updated in a while so it is missing the Steering Gain force).
Now we just need accurate details of how the PS4/Xbone is setup and what exactly is the master gain parameter for the wheel. This is a crucial bit of missing information because without knowing what controls the actual wheel driver gain on the consoles we can not properly compensate for their non-linearities.
As for the actual pCars FFB scaling engine, it is not as big of a mystery as people make it out to be. It's just something very unintuitive for a lot of people. It also suffers from the apparent subjective opinion of all of us. Some want "road feel", some shout they want "realism" while they still don't even know what that means. Some say they want more detail, again without knowing themselves what it actually means.. more road detail? More slip angle related detail? More weight transfer detail?
Anyhow, our complete system looks like this: tire model through steering rack -> complex FFB scaling system -> crappy non-linear consumer wheel. The two most difficult bits to understand are the two last pieces of the system but we do have the PDF guide that tells us quite thoroughly how the first part works. It should perhaps go into a bit more detail (like for instance how wide is the knee around the Scoop parameter?) but there's plenty of explanations in how the system works. The difficult and ambiguous part is the last bit.. how our consumer wheels work.
For pCars 2 I really hope all this can be made a lot more intuitive by actually graphically plotting the resulting curves and shapes of the pCars FFB scaling system. Heck, we could even have a simulated tire outputting various common forces like optimum slip angle while cornering, riding over heavy bumps/kerbs and the force output when a locked wheel slides over asphalt, right in the FFB calibration screen! This would make it much easier for people to tweak and actually understand what is going on and how each parameter affects the output to the FFB wheel.
I also hope we get a lot more presets to chose from and that the most common wheels on the market get thoroughly tested FFB defaults, per car. This would be quite a huge task but not an impossible one.. it'd take a few hundred man hours to do so it may not be enough return on investment from SMS perspective as the majority of people are still using controllers. It all depends on how seriously they want to take pCars as a true simulator (with the potential of perhaps selling the underlying physics technology to racing teams which could perhaps be a good additional income).
I don't want to start a conspiracy theory but what if all these force feedback settings were not supposed to be in the finished game?
Yeah, lets kill that rumor right away. We, the backers of the game, DEMANDED that we have the FFB system in the game. It is unique, it is exceptionally powerful and awesome. It's not the game's fault that it takes a bit of gray matter, patience, reading and understanding to get the most out of it.
Where SMS failed big time is in the way the FFB system was almost completely neglected in terms of proper presets and the overall implementation of the system into the messy user interface. The user interface in general of pCars is quite a mess and could have been way better. This is where they ran out of time.. but lets not blame the FFB implementation. It is awesome. By far the most flexible and most awesome FFB system ever created in any game. It's just badly utilized and had very rushed defaults (for instance, when the game shipped, it did so with my at the time default settings.. without considering that I had also tweaked every single car individually to make those settings work properly!).
The description for each parameter could also be a lot more in-depth and yet at the same time much more user friendly by having some graphs/graphics explaining the parameters properly.
Anyhow, all of this was quite low priority as the user base that has FFB wheels is tiny compared to the people using controllers and there were much more serious issues to be sorted before and right after launch.
rocafella1978
08-09-2015, 18:54
I see and understand what you mean, yes have read the PDF and other detailed scientific explanations on this FFB system, yet I do not see any explanation nor guides from or by SMS to help consumers understand all the settings and sliders in their FFB system.
as for crappy wheel and pedals...not everyone has the money to dish out 5-10k for a PC and another 1.5-5k for proper wheel and pedal setup, some are glad to have the money to purchase a T80 wheel or T100, if the game is designed only for high end linear high fidelity whatnot wheels and pedals then the flaw abd mistake is by the studio SMS, not the consumers nor the crappy wheel and pedal makers. if this is the base they worked off of, they should have stated and put it as a requirement to have high end wheels and pedals, ergo not made for consoles, but only PC.
IMO, the game is great, AI is great, FFB is great...BUT could be a lot easier and smoother if customer support was better and had a ticket system, forum is great but too much posted and too much gets lost, there still bugs from first release in the game, and yes, many games have same bugs too and problems too, but that that doesn't mean that if i make something i have to do it as all the rest of the industry, strive to be better and different.
so in summary, all is great and good, but FFB system is an absolute riddle, labyrinth and still mystifies users, especially bad when experienced and long time users of sim racing are completely overwhelmed LET ALONE someone who wants to get into sim racing first time with pCARS...good luck! (and I know from pers. family who purchased it on PC and XB1!!! very rude awakining they experienced along with frustration...) same goes with me and my T100 and G29...gave up fine tuning and as I think "haiden" put it: "done searching for the unicorn!"
but can't stop because depending on the settings...makes races fair or unfair...turned down FFB and other settings I get 2seconds out on tracks, advantage to me for making the wheel feel ***tt* but am fast. go with and do immersion u are slower for sure but get to enjoy the game more for what you "think" it should feel like, I am sure 98-99% of people have no clue how the real race cars feel like or are supposed to feel like. road cars...yes maybe and surely some who own or have driven such a car.
more later...back to work.
lancashirelad
08-09-2015, 19:07
Yeah, lets kill that rumor right away. We, the backers of the game, DEMANDED that we have the FFB system in the game. It is unique, it is exceptionally powerful and awesome. It's not the game's fault that it takes a bit of gray matter, patience, reading and understanding to get the most out of it.
Where SMS failed big time is in the way the FFB system was almost completely neglected in terms of proper presets and the overall implementation of the system into the messy user interface. The user interface in general of pCars is quite a mess and could have been way better. This is where they ran out of time.. but lets not blame the FFB implementation. It is awesome. By far the most flexible and most awesome FFB system ever created in any game. It's just badly utilized and had very rushed defaults (for instance, when the game shipped, it did so with my at the time default settings.. without considering that I had also tweaked every single car individually to make those settings work properly!).
The description for each parameter could also be a lot more in-depth and yet at the same time much more user friendly by having some graphs/graphics explaining the parameters properly.
Anyhow, all of this was quite low priority as the user base that has FFB wheels is tiny compared to the people using controllers and there were much more serious issues to be sorted before and right after launch.
I understand the need for a force feedback system but I'm sure it was not the intention to have gamers spend months ( yes months) trying to figure out the multitude of available settings, that's all I meant.
Spitfire77
08-09-2015, 20:12
I understand the need for a force feedback system but I'm sure it was not the intention to have gamers spend months ( yes months) trying to figure out the multitude of available settings, that's all I meant.
Maybe they wanted to use it as a method to keep people playing..
If it worked easily right from the start and you could not change it, a lot of us would have just raced more. That could not be what they wanted...:rolleyes:
Been tweaking my rig set up since PCars was out. All the discussion has been helpful but not leading to what feels like an optimal solution. My recent move up from Fanatec GT3RSv2 to CSWBv2 highlighted the need to better understand tuning to get the most from the new wheel.
Two schools? just tweak the global settings or tweak the car settings as well? Ideally Id want to be in the set globally once for all cars, and use the car settings as delivered. Just less work and maybe less rework after updates. But Ive tried the various approaches not sure where the best approximation of truth lies.
Having moved up to a higher fidelity wheel, the comparison to music playback seems relevant. The car settings are the source material - multi track recordings to be mixed by the system. The FFB physics model is the mixing and equalization of the tracks. The final scaling section of scoop etc are the tone and gain controls for adjusting the mix for various wheels, with the clipping graph as the output monitor. The wheel is the amp and speakers, with its own dynamic range.
Hi Fi audio is often considered, at least for the audiophile crowd, as the accurate reproduction of the live music experience.
For sim racing, I see this equivalent to reproducing as much of the realism of the physical driving experience as possible, while rendering the unique differences of cars, tracks, tires, weather etc, not just layering on arbitrary ffb effects.
But music producers mix tracks for the intended audience, often mixing pop to sound good on the average car radio, not the high end audio system.
Are the car setups delivered by SMS similarly compromised, mixed down a bit to accommodate controllers and mid-fi wheels? Or can the controller/wheel global setups can be accurately configured to work with a single car model setup? It seems from the range of global tuning options this may be possible.
Whats the source for the car setups provided? Are they based on any actual measurements of the vehicles, setup by people who have actually driven them? Based on how people think they should perform? Unless we know more about their source, then we cant hold them as absolute. The work done by the FFB car tuning group (Jack Spade et al) is just as valid an interpretation as any other car settings. It becomes more about taste though.
We need up to date documentation of the FFB system. Ill agree that the basic system is documented, but not the range of settings. Without better information on what the settings do, tweaking is too much trial and error. Id like to respect the math/physics of the engine as it seems fairly sophisticated, but like audio tweaking, one can produce lots of different sounding mixes, add unwanted distortions or introduce noise or clipping, while not reproducing the source material as accurately as possible. Thats where we are now, debating whether one kind of knob tweak feels better than another.
I really appreciate the effort by many to add information to this investigation, so big thanks. I think global tuning is about maximizing/optimizing the wheel performance and utilizing all of its range for the various effects. Agreed that the community can help develop these.
But I dont see how we can avoid not tweaking the individual car setups, no matter how much the global setup gets refined. Especially as there are some errors/omissions in the current setups. Also the option of using the SoP settings is not enabled otherwise.
Love the driving and want to see it improve.
Now we just need accurate details of how the PS4/Xbone is setup and what exactly is the master gain parameter for the wheel. This is a crucial bit of missing information because without knowing what controls the actual wheel driver gain on the consoles we can not properly compensate for their non-linearities.
This is exactly what we need to know. I think it has been the case that a lot of wheel users on consoles who have experienced the initial "WTF?" reaction to pCars' FFB system, have sought out information regarding global settings. The best information has come from experienced players of the game on PC through its developmental stages, like Jack and yourself, and in both cases, the only reference we had (regarding the console FFB control) was to set the FFB master to 100 to preserve detail and optimise the system. Of course, this was a reference to the FFB master in the PC version of the game. I have not seen any authoritative PC players recommending running the Control Panel 'Overall Strength' control in the driver at 100%, as well as the in game FFB master. If the console FFB master is more akin to the Control Panel master, then we should be taking those settings as our recommended FFB output to the wheel. If that is the case, then the PC in-game master (which many have described as redundant, thus the recommendation of leaving it 'wide open' at 100) is simply absent in the console implementation of the game. Perhaps then we are left with Steering Gain as some form of equivalent, since it takes all forces into account, and is prior to our telemetry metering.
It doesn't seem to be an adequate solution to simply lower Tire Force instead, because it is at the input stage of the signal chain, and therefore dramatically affects all of the subsequent parameters, including carefully tweaked in-car settings and the range of dynamics controllers (Relative Gain, Scoop, Soft Clip). Certainly we can mess with its setting as part of our tweaking for a desired feel, but it is not the same as lowering FFB or Steering Gain. If the console FFB master is like the PC in-game master, then the existing recommendations would stand. However, on a T300, for example, a setting of 100 at the FFB master creates some very strange anomalies, including a grainy, notched feeling during cornering, even with moderate settings elsewhere in the chain. Since we have no monitoring of what the FFB master is doing, it is possible that this is the result of clipping at the output to the wheel.
Could the console wheel defaults be a clue as to the optimised settings for our wheels? Are TF - 100, Steering Gain at either 75 (pre 1.4 'Classic' preset) or 100 (post 3.0 'Default' preset) and FFB - 75, an indication of an optimised foundation from which to start tweaking? Obviously we can set anything wherever we want, but it seems to be the case that the FFB system has been substantially improved via update since release. It would be good to know the intended settings as the starting point of an optimised system.
Knowing the true nature of the console FFB master is crucial to this end.
GrimeyDog
09-09-2015, 15:15
Been tweaking my rig set up since PCars was out. All the discussion has been helpful but not leading to what feels like an optimal solution. My recent move up from Fanatec GT3RSv2 to CSWBv2 highlighted the need to better understand tuning to get the most from the new wheel.
Two schools? –just tweak the global settings or tweak the car settings as well? Ideally I’d want to be in the set globally once for all cars, and use the car settings as delivered. Just less work and maybe less rework after updates. But I’ve tried the various approaches – not sure where the best approximation of “truth” lies.
Having moved up to a higher “fidelity” wheel, the comparison to music playback seems relevant. The car settings are the source material - multi track recordings to be mixed by the system. The FFB physics model is the mixing and equalization of the tracks. The final scaling section of scoop etc are the tone and gain controls for adjusting the mix for various wheels, with the clipping graph as the output monitor. The wheel is the amp and speakers, with its own dynamic range.
Hi Fi audio is often considered, at least for the audiophile crowd, as the accurate reproduction of the live music experience.
For sim racing, I see this equivalent to reproducing as much of the “realism” of the physical driving experience as possible, while rendering the unique differences of cars, tracks, tires, weather etc, not just layering on arbitrary ffb effects.
But music producers “mix” tracks for the intended audience, often mixing pop to sound good on the average car radio, not the high end audio system.
Are the car setups delivered by SMS similarly compromised, mixed down a bit to accommodate controllers and mid-fi wheels? Or can the controller/wheel global setups can be accurately configured to work with a single car model setup? It seems from the range of global tuning options this may be possible.
What’s the source for the car setups provided? Are they based on any actual measurements of the vehicles, setup by people who have actually driven them? Based on how people think they should perform? Unless we know more about their source, then we can’t hold them as absolute. The work done by the FFB car tuning group (Jack Spade et al) is just as valid an interpretation as any other car settings. It becomes more about taste though.
We need up to date documentation of the FFB system. I’ll agree that the basic system is documented, but not the range of settings. Without better information on what the settings do, tweaking is too much trial and error. I’d like to respect the math/physics of the engine as it seems fairly sophisticated, but like audio tweaking, one can produce lots of different sounding mixes, add unwanted distortions or introduce noise or clipping, while not reproducing the source material as accurately as possible. That’s where we are now, debating whether one kind of knob tweak “feels” better than another.
I really appreciate the effort by many to add information to this investigation, so big thanks. I think global tuning is about maximizing/optimizing the wheel performance and utilizing all of its range for the various effects. Agreed that the community can help develop these.
But I don’t see how we can avoid not tweaking the individual car setups, no matter how much the global setup gets refined. Especially as there are some errors/omissions in the current setups. Also the option of using the SoP settings is not enabled otherwise.
Love the driving and want to see it improve.
Exactly Seems that you understand!!!
The Last Gen of wheel Dont Have the Power and Sensitivity of the New Gen Brushless wheels... While older wheels are Still usable and still can be Made to Feel Very Good they are still limited by Hardware... alot of setting ive seen are just set Too High on 1 and too Low on others... Turning "X" up too high leaves No Room for "A"
its all about a Nice blend of FFB Forces.... Seems that the settings are being used to Get More Power out of the wheel that it was Not Designed to put out... a Few people have burned out their wheels already by over driving them with Excessive FFB input... Too Much FFB input = Distortion and that = GIGO "Garbage in Garbage Out" .
Thats Like Booming Base with No Highs and Very Low Mid Range... Its just Noise with No Clarity or Fidelity.
Also there Need to be Specific Tunes Per Platform and Per Wheel!!! a PS4 tune May Not work with PC because FFB the Out put levels will be different... Conclusion is No One Tune will work on Every platform without being Tweeked to Match that Platforms output levels.
GrimeyDog
09-09-2015, 15:23
*** Edit i fixed the link to the Tweek... i was posting from my phone earlier:stupid:
post#1722
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?21978-PS4-Fanatec-hardware-discussion-thread&p=1095824#post1095824
This is the Thread where my FFB Tweek is Posted... It was Made and Fine tuned for the CSW v2 wheel.... Feel free to try it... it may work on other wheels as is but i cant confirm that... I can only Guarentee it with the V2 wheel... Yes It can be Tweeked to work with other wheels and your particular FFB taste... Feel free to post or private message me if you have any questions... let me know what you think.
I use Stock un-tuned Cars and they all Feel Great to Me....I dont even think about tuning Car Set ups until all the FFB Questions are sorted out.... But the Stock Car Settings are Really Good!!!
Edit: Ive been tweeking with my FFB Tweek and it Responds Very well to In car FFB Master Scale/SOP Scale adjustment...Lower :yes:NOT Higher:mad:
If you Need to adjust the Tweek i would first Try reducing the in car Master Scale and SOP Scale But Remember to set them at the Same # Values always...You should be able to find your sweet spot.
From the way My wheel feels the Global settings are spot on:glee:
This is exactly what we need to know. I think it has been the case that a lot of wheel users on consoles who have experienced the initial "WTF?" reaction to pCars' FFB system, have sought out information regarding global settings. The best information has come from experienced players of the game on PC through its developmental stages, like Jack and yourself, and in both cases, the only reference we had (regarding the console FFB control) was to set the FFB master to 100 to preserve detail and optimise the system. Of course, this was a reference to the FFB master in the PC version of the game. I have not seen any authoritative PC players recommending running the Control Panel 'Overall Strength' control in the driver at 100%, as well as the in game FFB master. If the console FFB master is more akin to the Control Panel master, then we should be taking those settings as our recommended FFB output to the wheel. If that is the case, then the PC in-game master (which many have described as redundant, thus the recommendation of leaving it 'wide open' at 100) is simply absent in the console implementation of the game. Perhaps then we are left with Steering Gain as some form of equivalent, since it takes all forces into account, and is prior to our telemetry metering.
It doesn't seem to be an adequate solution to simply lower Tire Force instead, because it is at the input stage of the signal chain, and therefore dramatically affects all of the subsequent parameters, including carefully tweaked in-car settings and the range of dynamics controllers (Relative Gain, Scoop, Soft Clip). Certainly we can mess with its setting as part of our tweaking for a desired feel, but it is not the same as lowering FFB or Steering Gain. If the console FFB master is like the PC in-game master, then the existing recommendations would stand. However, on a T300, for example, a setting of 100 at the FFB master creates some very strange anomalies, including a grainy, notched feeling during cornering, even with moderate settings elsewhere in the chain. Since we have no monitoring of what the FFB master is doing, it is possible that this is the result of clipping at the output to the wheel.
Could the console wheel defaults be a clue as to the optimised settings for our wheels? Are TF - 100, Steering Gain at either 75 (pre 1.4 'Classic' preset) or 100 (post 3.0 'Default' preset) and FFB - 75, an indication of an optimised foundation from which to start tweaking? Obviously we can set anything wherever we want, but it seems to be the case that the FFB system has been substantially improved via update since release. It would be good to know the intended settings as the starting point of an optimised system.
Knowing the true nature of the console FFB master is crucial to this end.
I don't think Sony or Microsoft would limit the wheels. They probably just leave everything maxed out for the devs to play with. Perhaps people with the game on both console and PC could max the settings in the PC control panel then use the same in game settings for both systems and see if they feel similar ???
Exactly Seems that you understand!!!
Getting there...thx
Also there Need to be Specific Tunes Per Platform and Per Wheel!!! a PS4 tune May Not work with PC because FFB the Out put levels will be different... Conclusion is No One Tune will work on Every platform without being Tweeked to Match that Platforms output levels.
Yes each wheel on each platform is unique combination. Manufacturers devices may group into families where characteristics are similar which might simplify or at least provide tolerable general settings.
W/O the SDKs from the various parties (Sony, MS, Fanatec, TM etc) its hard to know what those platform differences might be. having a PS4 App equivalent to the Fanatec Tuning section of their driver would be nice.The ability to characterize the wheels behavior similar to the linearity graphs done elsewhere (forgive me - really hard to find history in these active threads) would really help. Being able to describe the abilities of the wheels and relate them to the appropriate options to tune (both in game and on wheel it it has that capability) for the desired feel would give people some ways to adjust to suit.
Since it falls to the Devs to decide to "support" a wheel, they must be able to get some of this information, but they probably still have to do a bunch of the same stuff we are doing to make it really work well. So more wheels = more effort = more $$. The base information probably defines "compatability" - buttons, axis, rotation, various commands etc. We probably just got this level in the early patches. Tuning it to behave well is something that's really a partnership between the dev's and the wheel manufacturer. That's what should become the "default" tune for the various wheels.
GrimeyDog
09-09-2015, 23:30
I'm Home at My PC so i can post the FFB Tweek PDF
Use the Default FFB profile
i have Not made a New PDF because these 2.0 settings work and feel great with 3.0... Pay ATTN to where i put ***Note*** in this POST these are the Changes because i have not made a new PDF yet.
No Need to Move the New Spring Sliders in the menu works and feels fine as is with CSW v2.
***NOTE*** PDF says 24 FFB use 25 and 15 on Relative Adjust Bleed.... ***this change was only because we can tweek by 1's again Yay!!!***
***NOTE*** Dead Zone Removal Fall Off Move Full Left to 0.00 then 5 clicks Right.
FFB is Very Strong at 100% FFB on Wheel... i set on wheel FFB to 75%.... Set DOR to AUT/Off and let game control the DOR...all other on wheel settings are unchanged/Default wheel settings.
EDIT: Ive been Tweeking with the Tweek and it is Very Responsive to Master Scale and SOP Scale adjustments Reduce the Master Scale and SOP Scale to best fit your Wheel or FFB taste:yes:.... you should Not Turn this setting up past 100:mad:
Master Scale/SOP Scale These 2 Settings should ALWAYS be set at the Same # Value:eagerness:
Based on how my wheel feels the Global settings are dialed in Nicely and should not be changed:barbershop_quartet_...JMO
Grimey, finally got to spend some time testing your set up.
Globally its good, similar in many ways to what I was running though - Gruzzlebeard’s - when using the default car settings. I realize you tweaked your car settings pretty heavily and I tried those as well - more below.
But for comparing the global settings, I start testing with the default settings, partly because I’m familiar with them, partly because they provide a basis for comparison. As i mentioned before, I’d prefer to have the default car settings be the basis for minor tuning of any of the car FFB settings, IF they represent a configuration that is a decent “simulation” of the specific car. Whatever physical parameters in the car setup, weight suspension, configuration etc, define the car should drive the global FFB settings to differentiate the vehicles. Tuning FFB would be like tuning the suspension, not as a “fix” for settings in the global FFB setup (assuming these are correctly implemented - correcting for bugs is a different issue)
As we both agreed, the global FFB setup is unique to each/wheel combination, in our case PS4/CWS v2.
So my first questions were related to how your setup differed from Gruzzle’s - what settings produced what if any FFB differences and why - hoping this would help me find a global setup I was happy with. The setting differences came down to FFB strength, relative adjust gain, relative adjust bleed, scoop and linkage stiffness. So i did some went back and read that FFB guide from April - helpful but not enough in depth definition. And did some testing.
I did my testing with the RUF gt3 at Sonoma GP, which has lots of varying height, corner loads curbs, terrain etc.
Back to back testing is tough as there is such a long delay between each setup, so small subjective differences are hard to catch. TIP: for those who hadn’t noticed, after exiting a practice session, use the option button to select the controls sub menu. When you exit controls with the back O button, you end up back at practice which saves some clicks - adds up.
First FFB strength. Not sure what the Devs did for patch 3 but this control has pretty much NO effect. 0 does turn it off, but 1-100 is pretty much the same as far as I can tell. Steering gain changes output level but not FFB - more on this below.
Relative Gain, bleed, etc are defined as related to the way torque is applied to the wheel, balance the relative torque inputs vs those required to keep the wheel in position as required (sorry but this is a poor reduction of the limited explanation). But from a driving experience, this seems to me to make minor differences in how the wheel feels, more to taste then any major behavior change.
Scoop Knee and Reduction are there to help wheels with more limited range, and end up changing the linearity of the feedback presented to the wheel. the CSW has plenty of range and force so I set these to 0. again minor differences in feel, but nothing dramatic. In testing I got identical lap times with either.
Linkage stiffness - this is interesting because because apparently you have Linkage Scale set to 0, which turns anything to do with linkage off, so the stiffness setting has not effect - setting to 0 produces same results. But I was curious about this setting as the docs define it “The ar/mlinkage simulates that the wheel is driven by a non rigid linkage, the driver’s am”. So as I understand the intent is to give some additional feel related to the way our physical body interacts, adding some “flex” and mass in the loop. So I tried it out. You would have noticed if you had added any scale at all with a stiffness of 1. Its an interesting effect.
It feels like its simulating inertia (of arms plus steering?) under lateral loads, that is the tendency of wheel to continue turning/following the initial turn, influenced by the amount of lateral loading. So corners and side loading exaggerate the effect and going straight does not. At high settings it feels like something is continuing to turn the wheel. Set low enough and I can start to see some additional realism creeping into the overall feel. I don’t yet have any recommended settings but scale is around 20-30 and stiffness is about .1-.2 to start. However this does add on top of the overall FFB effects so will affect clipping so other stuff in the FX, FY, FZ etc setting will need to be dialed down. Or use Steering Gain.
Steering gain does reduce output to the wheel, but its reducing the output prior to the clipping measurement (further upstream of other settings) so this will reduce clipping.
So the linkage settings are part of the global setup, but influence the FFB engine closer to the car inputs.
Regarding car setups. I found your settings not really to my taste. Setting the master scale way up, seems to be so that the curb inputs, and wheel weight can be cranked way up, to strong for my preferences. However I was not that wild about some of the tunes that Jack Spade came up with either, seemed to lack…something. Can’t say yet what. My current driving preference is still default, with some SOP lateral (50-70) and SOP differential (70-100) dialed in. Sill plan to mess with linkage, and lowering FY is one way to reduce clipping.
Still wondering about how to get to a set of car settings that are reasonable approximations of the real things. Its all about personal taste now. But that raises a question - should we just tune for best lap time? Or “realism” whatever that means?
Still want a better set of documentation of the parameters, and what part of the system they affect.
rocafella1978
13-09-2015, 22:56
your last paragraph and what you wrote @RS60, is exactly my complaint in the G29 thread, post #375 and there interesting replies and shows many are experiencing the same, which leads me to believe it is the wrong approach for sim racing games IMHO only of course. (there should be set parameters with how a vehicle and track are physically and only changes or vehicle tune/ suspension camber and etc etc blabla should effect as only factor behavior of FFB...otherwise in my eyes and what i have now found out, useless system and unfair and unbalanced system at least for online playing, league racing and etc.)
GrimeyDog
13-09-2015, 23:37
I like alot of road feel in my wheel... but you can always turn down the In Car Masters to suit you taste... the beautiful thing with the V2/V1 wheels you can turn down the FOR setting on the wheel and reduce the center Spring FFB Effects with out Reducing the Wheel Torque... I keep my FOR set to 100... i like FFB and Wheel Torque set between Med & High if Not i find my self over Turning if the Forces are too weak... I guess i don't know my own strength... LOL
After trying Grimeys setup i can say for sure the main ffb needs to be turned down.Not set at 100 like we have been told since the beginning.I even reinstalled the game and it was the same with ffb and it was still the same .All default settings for game and car just turned ffb down to 25 and started tuning. i finished at 50 to get the feel i wanted at this point.But in 2 hours i made more progress than i have since the game came out.I was actually pretty happy for a change and just enjoyed driving for a couple hours.We have to remember the ffb on consoles is after the telemetry screen you will still clip if set too high regardless of what the screen says.As for jacks tweaks .I feel the same way everyone i have tried seems to have no weight transfer and they all seem to have a artificial snappy looseness to them.Maybe on pc the work great but as we are finding out consoles are different.
GrimeyDog
14-09-2015, 11:21
After trying Grimeys setup i can say for sure the main ffb needs to be turned down.Not set at 100 like we have been told since the beginning.I even reinstalled the game and it was the same with ffb and it was still the same .All default settings for game and car just turned ffb down to 25 and started tuning. i finished at 50 to get the feel i wanted at this point.But in 2 hours i made more progress than i have since the game came out.I was actually pretty happy for a change and just enjoyed driving for a couple hours.We have to remember the ffb on consoles is after the telemetry screen you will still clip if set too high regardless of what the screen says.As for jacks tweaks .I feel the same way everyone i have tried seems to have no weight transfer and they all seem to have a artificial snappy looseness to them.Maybe on pc the work great but as we are finding out consoles are different.
Exactly what ive been Saying People are Stuck Giving up and Dont want to Try a New way.
Ive been forgetting to Note that i drve in Car View with the Camra Shake on at default Values... Thats How i Tweeked the FFB... Try Driving in Car View its Great Fun and what you feel in the Wheel Matches the Camra Shake Exactly... Makes a Huge Difference.
GrimeyDog
14-09-2015, 12:17
https://youtu.be/q3UXSiH7Lx8
More Proof that all Cars Can Have the Same General in Car FFB Settings with Minor + or - to bring out or Reduce certain Forces...Also i go through the 4 Cars used Suspensions to Show all Settings are Stock/Un-Tweeked...Why do you Need 4 totally Diferent FFB Tweeks when 1 Tweek can Have it all???
tennenbaum
04-10-2015, 17:50
Obviously, even for experienced members it's difficult to "re-engineer" a relatively simple signal-path that could have been issued by the developers even as hand drawn diagram in a minute.
I really wonder due to what kind of dev's strategy (or problem) nothing substantial was ever heard from those who actually coded a signal path, otherwise there would be nothing to feed a wheel with it. I don't wanna be sarcastic, but it seems as if in a programmers team one person responsible for a specific code-module got lost and with him the documentation. Or worse, the FFB part of the code became "spaghetti code", and every tweak adds more confusion (even to the coder). That would explain, why they don't explain anything. If they did, logical explanations would lead to logical comprehensive conclusions - even up to the point where it can be proven that possibly some calculations don't work the way they should.
Don't get me wrong, but isn't it strange that guys being so brilliant to actually design the FFB system the way it is (basically a fantastic architecture) get totally silent when the complexity of the system leads to serious questions.
As for an example: The soft clipping (Full and Half) is described so minimalistic - I may even say misleading - that it's impossible to understand what it really does with the signal. Even Jack Spade IMHO kind of beats around the bush using the analogy of an audio compressor. If it is a compressor (which it is indeed very likely), why not simply saying what the factor is that soft clipping (half input) reduces the input value? It is so poorly described, you can't even guess if 0,2 reduces the signal for the factor five, or not. Just assuming it's that simple that e.g. 0,8 makes a 60% (0,6) input signal strength reduced to an (0,8 x 0,6) 0,48 output signal strength, this knowledge leads to nowhere as long as you don't know what "soft clipping (full input)" does with such result of the soft clipper (half). It's true: if the soft clipper (full) is nothing else than a signal gain adjust, it doesn't matter much if that OP (operator module) sits before or after the soft clipper (half). However, one must know what the soft clipper (full) eventually does. Is it really setting the gain higher after (or before) it got reduced by the soft clipping (half) module? Or is the soft clipper (full) doing something different? Due to its settings (>1 or < 1) I can only assume that the soft-clipped (half) signal is either increased or decreased. And even then, than i don't know, what e.g. 1,2 mean? Is the signal amplified by factor 1,2, or what? Who ever worked with an audio compressor/limiter knows how these tools work, and it's not so difficult to explain how they function and what you can do with it. But even when you know how compression of signals usually works, it doesn't help you with PCars' weird references. (I'm still looking desperately for an answer.)
Another example: I didn't find any comprehensive info about the "spindle arm (angle)". Just by cutting of the word "angle", which they did, it's almost impossible to figure out for what that "spindle arm" parameter stands for. Since the game was released there is happy guessing among the entire community about what the values from 0 - 4500 will do or mean. How shall we know that the number stands for 0 to 45 degree angle position of the arm (as piece of the knuckle) measured towards the tire axle that is approached by the tie rod219673. And that this angle is crucial (google "Ackermann Angle") to make sure that during cornering the outer tire is on its bigger radius circle track without unnecessary slip friction, while the inner tire can do the same on its smaller radius circle.219674. With such a little hint (that the devs could have given) things get so much easier to understand: 0 = 90 degrees to tire axle, 4500 = 45 degrees to it (check picture by looking from above), you realize why 0 = stickier (heavy) FFB feeling (depending on how strong you set the Fm Alignment torque force), while the max 4500 lead to a "lighter" FFB feeling, since the outer and the inner tire suffer less slip friction - with a value somewhere between 1500 - 4500 (depending on the distance of front and rear axis; so length of the car, and wished maximum steering angle (for tight or long corners)).
My point is: I know that PCars was developed with relatively little money, and for that the outcome is sensational! But since the game got such a broad basis of brave and ambitious contributors and members, why not giving them just as much little info from the devs as they need to fill the gaps by themselves, so they can complete the "manual" and everybody would be happy. People love to build a big house on a stable fundament. But they don't like to do that on unstable ground, meaning to do try and error due to a lack of a minimum of proven basic info.
I'm fully aware that there is no "best practice" (or a golden mix of the 37 parameter settings) for a perfect balanced FFB setting, instead the charm of PCars' many choices of settings lies in the fact that everybody can "customize" the FFB to his own taste and needs. The more transparent the FFB system gets the more people get the chance to realize that in a sim the wheel is rather a pretty artificial "user interface" than a real steering wheel. That doesn't mean that the sim wheel with its actually stunning elaborated FFB signal processing must be judged as "less realistic" or "compromised" compared to real steering. It's the other way round: Due to a deeper knowledge of the parameters and what they actually do, gamers will understand that "their FFB setting mix" is very personal, but can lead to their personal best experience in a sense that this feels actually "real" to them.
I can hear many saying, "No, there must be a best setting that comes relatively closest to reality!". From what i think, I'd rather say there are indeed settings (for different cars, tracks and wheels) that offer intuitively the best compromise, the "over all feeling", between the feeling of realism and most suitable "feedback" for driving fast. Even if the latter has nothing to do with realism. As e.g mixing the G-Forces (Gutts) and the SoP (Seat of Pants) signals into the steering rack signal is really brilliant considering the possibilities of what an FFB expert can do with it, while it is totally unrealistic to "find" such forces "translated" into a torque force of the steering wheel. Remember that the calculation of all these many multidimensional vectors of forces of the tire model and the car's body physics are funneled to just ONE simple signal channel that outputs a voltage value between 0 - 5 (?) volt to the motor of the FFB wheel that can only go round left or right with a more or less stuttering strength. The fact that you got eventually nothing more than a torque force with simple sequential rumbling patterns (but containing a very complex reading), leads to my conclusion: Knowing the reasons why the wheels "stutters" "the driving" the way it does, makes you learn to read the wheel's language. Finally leading "to virtual reality" by immersion.
Why so many words? Again, i'd just like to ask the developers to feed the community with a minimum of substantial info about the FFB system. Doing so, so many more people could benefit from the FFB system's unparalleled flexibility and their expensive wheel hardware. And maybe more hotlaps records done by gamepad drivers will be broken then by wheel users.
gruzzlebeard
04-10-2015, 18:28
Well said tennenbaum. I think it's is really time to issue an official and understandable handbook from SMS side - and why not using experts from the WMD community for a description of the functionalities and make additionally an understandable example per function.
BTW the links to the 2 attachments are not working (for me).
tennenbaum
04-10-2015, 19:38
Well said tennenbaum. I think it's is really time to issue an official and understandable handbook from SMS side - and why not using experts from the WMD community for a description of the functionalities and make additionally an understandable example per function.
BTW the links to the 2 attachments are not working (for me).
219684
Hope the picture got attached now. The "Ackermann Angle", aka A-Angle. It shows the spindle arm (angle), explaining what 0 - 4500 (0 to 45 degrees) does in the FFB setting.
vahagn_hayk
04-10-2015, 19:48
handbook about FFB never going to happen, reading all the posts thread of hundreds of people asking and threads getting burried back and under all the other stuff, even FFB stuff, SMS should thank and send appreciations to all the users who are contributing to this forum in such way on their personal time...and trying to decrypt this system, and since release of game no handbook no explanation has been provided. I have been searching for a week now, there is nothing official out there except the "wannabe" description in game and some other PDF's, documents and videos from WMD pcars1 members, sim review and other community members, BUT NO studio staff handbook or detailed explanation. nothing at all and Jack Spade stuff works on PC but also people need to know what is what, why just blindly follow Jack Spade FFB stuff??? way too complicated and way too vague of explanations!
spot on with your post @tannenbaum!!!!!
gruzzlebeard
04-10-2015, 19:54
Ruf GT3, standard tuning settings
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCpQHOuZE2o
219842
tennenbaum
04-10-2015, 19:56
handbook about FFB never going to happen, reading all the posts thread of hundreds of people asking and threads getting burried back and under all the other stuff, even FFB stuff, SMS should thank and send appreciations to all the users who are contributing to this forum in such way on their personal time...and trying to decrypt this system, and since release of game no handbook no explanation has been provided. I have been searching for a week now, there is nothing official out there except the "wannabe" description in game and some other PDF's, documents and videos from WMD pcars1 members, sim review and other community members, BUT NO studio staff handbook or detailed explanation. nothing at all and Jack Spade stuff works on PC but also people need to know what is what, why just blindly follow Jack Spade FFB stuff??? way too complicated and way too vague of explanations!
spot on with your post @tannenbaum!!!!!
"...trying to decrypt this system". yes, that puts it perfectly right.
gruzzlebeard
04-10-2015, 20:01
With advanced setting SSD "ON". Not sure if it is a benefit at all. Additional issue with profile data savings reported when Advanced settings on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmUkk7JJlnM
gruzzlebeard
04-10-2015, 20:08
Additional scoop dialed in. Gives a better road feel. I little bit more lively oscillations and feel on the wheel. If scoop is used the overall FFB is reduced. Therefore increased Master scale and SoP Scale +6
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Spq0ouQyMw
219686
gruzzlebeard
04-10-2015, 20:12
Adjusted settings in scoop if Per Wheel Movement is used or if alternatively DRI = 003 is used in CSW V2 wheel base. PWM in-game and DRI in-wheel are similar functionalities. With PWM or DRI values the wheel is not linear any more and is therefore mitigated with different Scoop adjustments.
Increased Master scale and SoP Scale +8
With positive PWM and negative PWMS the wheel feels heavier.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAwKHW9osVE
gruzzlebeard
04-10-2015, 20:16
With negative PWM and positive PWMS the wheel feels lighter.
Telemetry data with low scoop reduction & PWM:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehk8RFVkBt4
Telemetry data with DRI "003" & increased Scoop, no PWM:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxOhbzz5EqM
219773
keep it simple...no need to decrypt anything. just default ffb is quite good now.
just seems to be a lot of obsession over chasing an ideal when what we have available is already very good...
redruMKO
04-10-2015, 20:36
I agree Tennenbaum. Good points.
Although I was a bit confused when you got to Arm Angle, because you started saying there is NO INFO, but then you gave me some quite good info. thanks! But it is crazy stuff. And you didnt even mention the ones that go negative! so is -5OO similar to +5OO or what?
Also agree about the soft clip. I have used it a lot with different setups, but i am really glad now that my latest ones have both Soft Clip variables at zero. And Steering Gain = 1.OO feels good too.... I like to cut back on some of these doubled-up settings.
As for the second last paragraph. If J R R Tolkien had given people 1OOO loose pages and said 'you can put these together in whatever order you think is best, and make a great story!'.....
Some might have been better than LOTR!... But most would be much worse. and it never would have had any consistency for people to 'share' an experience, and I'm sure would not have been a best-seller or spawned a cartoon/films/games.
I dont want to stop people from 'tweeking', but what possible good is it to all agree that there is NO perfect or 'normal' setup?
gruzzlebeard
04-10-2015, 21:12
keep it simple...no need to decrypt anything. just default ffb is quite good now.
just seems to be a lot of obsession over chasing an ideal when what we have available is already very good...
Are you sure with this statement as a PC user with TX/CSR wheel? Do you have experience with the FFB on PS4 with a CSW V2?
If yes then please send me your settings. Thanks in advance I would be very grateful because it's not good at all. The presets are crap esp. for Scoop etc.
if you mean that consoles have different FFB ive heard that suggested although i have no idea how its possible. jack spade has uses a csw2 & has all the details of how to configure it for pCARS. i configured my TX & my g27 before that using his settings & general tips & rate pCARS ffb quite highly.
tennenbaum
05-10-2015, 20:11
I agree Tennenbaum. Good points.
Although I was a bit confused when you got to Arm Angle, because you started saying there is NO INFO, but then you gave me some quite good info. thanks! But it is crazy stuff. And you didnt even mention the ones that go negative! so is -5OO similar to +5OO or what?
Also agree about the soft clip. I have used it a lot with different setups, but i am really glad now that my latest ones have both Soft Clip variables at zero. And Steering Gain = 1.OO feels good too.... I like to cut back on some of these doubled-up settings.
As for the second last paragraph. If J R R Tolkien had given people 1OOO loose pages and said 'you can put these together in whatever order you think is best, and make a great story!'.....
Some might have been better than LOTR!... But most would be much worse. and it never would have had any consistency for people to 'share' an experience, and I'm sure would not have been a best-seller or spawned a cartoon/films/games.
I dont want to stop people from 'tweeking', but what possible good is it to all agree that there is NO perfect or 'normal' setup?
glad, you liked my insights about "Arm Angle". (NB: i don't have any prove yet that my conclusions are correct, though practical driving test i did seem to match my assumptions). Actually i really couldn't find anything about it, neither in the official forum here nor by googling it in other PCars forums.
GrimeyDog
05-10-2015, 23:06
CSW v2 Pcars FFB Tweek PS4 & Xbox 1 V# 110
This Tweek works on PS4 & XB1 Exactly as is with The CSW v2 Wheel... I use 75% on Wheel FFB but you can use 100% on Wheel FFB if you Want it Really strong... Other wheels may work but you will have to Tweek it for YOUR specific Wheel.
*** Note the XBox 1 Feels Horrible with Game Master FFB set to 100%!!! PS4 you can Run Game Master FFB at 100% but you Lose much of the Subtle Road feel***
I Use 25% Master Game FFB Level... Feels Great and Is Very Very Strong with the V2 at 100% on Wheel FFB.
After many weeks and over 200hrs of Pcars FFB Tweeking I Have the opinion that 100% in Game FFB is NOT Needed and as a Matter of Fact i find that using 100% in Game FFB you Lose Much of the subtle Road feel because it is being Drowned out by the Stronger harsher FFB Forces.
My point of view with Console FFB is I see the Tire Force as a Constant FFB/ Wheel weight that is Governed the the Relative adjust settings… My Theory is The Relative adjust settings either Apply Torque or Bleed Off Torque to Create a change in Wheel Weight and that is what gives you the Feeling of FFB and Weight Transfer.
I see The Master in Game FFB Level as a Volume control sort of like a Car Stereo… You Turn it up to the Point that you start Getting Distortion then you Back off of it until the Distortion Stops… Then you would Fine tune your EQ or Bass, Mids & Treble until it sounds Good (in car FFB Settings) then readjust the Volume accordingly ( Master in Game FFB)…. to Keep it simple I see Pcars FFB the same way.
Some Run their in Car Master Scales very Low and the Game Master FFB at 100% This i do Not understand because Running the In Car Master Scales Very Low is Killing the Very Forces that you are trying to Feel… I even see some with in Car FFB Masters at 30% + or - but still very low and they have the FX, FY ETC: at 100 and Even Higher...this I don’t understand Either because No Matter How High you set the FX,FY ETC you are Blocking or Limiting the FFB those settings can Put out because the in Car Master Scales are set to 30… so IMO Nothing above 30 is going to get out.
My Theory is I Run the in Car masters at 100% because i want to Feel the Full Range of FFB signal that is put out...The settings within the Masters can be set to your taste depending on what you want to Feel Most… Also by Running the Game Master FFB at a Lower # and Having Higher In car master Scales allows you to Turn up the settings FY,FX ETC within the in car FFB Master Scales and Reduce or Better Control Clipping issues without having to Change your Global settings.
Edit: I also believe that the Best FFB Tune is Just made by Trial and Error... I say this Because there is No Way to Validate what X = in Reality VS what X was programmed to = for PCars... Trial and Error if it feels good then it is good. There is No way to mathematically balance this Pcars FFB equation.
gruzzlebeard
06-10-2015, 08:44
Howdy GrimeyDog, thanks for this update. I will use your tweeker file and will proceed with further tests based on that.
I finished my testing with "Linearity settings". The wheel feel changes are quite noticeable when tweeking DRR/DRF, Scoop and PWM/PWMS (PWM didn't feel so good to me). Overall this exercise was not only a mathematical approach. At the end of the day what counts is the empiric wheel feel with a lot of testing. Not everything what has been calculated felt good on the track. But it was a good starting point and a good experience. I posted some video with the telemetry data above.
I was astonished that the changes of the parameters didn't change the telemetry data too much. Actually I expected significant changes. But if you compare the videos it seems that the oscillations are not changing too much. The wheel feel is noticeable but the telemetry data not too much - this surprised me.
So even more I'm convinced what GrimeyDog is writing that the right mixture of Global FFB, Wheel FFB, Master and SoP scale and TF are making the big differences in FFB for PS4/Fanatec users (and maybe the new functionalities for Steering gain and spring settings - who knows?). Lower global FFB might give more room for the lower and mid subtle signals.
What the PC guys are writing that all FFB to 100% and lower Car FFB might be right for PCs but maybe not for consoleros.
I'm keen what the new test round will bring to me. I also want to check if I can replicate the telemetry data results from Grimey and can compare them 1:1. Before patch 4.0 I've got other oscillations on my HUD screen then Grimey. And the FFB feel was not so good. Maybe I overlooked a setting or maybe it was caused by a somehow corrupted game save profile at that time.
gruzzlebeard
06-10-2015, 08:48
if you mean that consoles have different FFB ive heard that suggested although i have no idea how its possible. jack spade has uses a csw2 & has all the details of how to configure it for pCARS. i configured my TX & my g27 before that using his settings & general tips & rate pCARS ffb quite highly.
I'm quite sure it is different on PS4 in combination with CSW V2. Maybe I will buy the PC version of the game and try it on my son's gamer PC.
redruMKO
06-10-2015, 14:20
I was astonished that the changes of the parameters didn't change the telemetry data too much. Actually I expected significant changes. But if you compare the videos it seems that the oscillations are not changing too much. The wheel feel is noticeable but the telemetry data not too much - this surprised me.
I have noticed this too. From the explanations of the telemetry chart I would expect the highest anticlockwise force when the line is at the top, and the strongest clockwise force when it is at the bottom [or actually the middle... what is that about?]
But my hands seem to tell me that this is not quite the whole story.
I bet if this was happening in 2O2O someone would be able to chuck this whole thing into an AI-reverse engineering mechanic program and get some proper answers of what is connected to what in about ten minutes. sigh
What the PC guys are writing that all FFB to 100% and lower Car FFB might be right for PCs but maybe not for consoleros.
My theory on this is that the PC guys actually have two 'master FFB' controls, the in-game control that they recommend be set to 100, and the Strength of All Forces setting in their wheel driver's control panel. which often seems to be set to its default for the specific wheel. The final output of forces to the wheel is a combination of these two, e.g., 100 at the in-game master and 60 at the Control Panel, will mean a final output to the wheel of 60. The console system only gives us one master output, and in a recent conversation with Tim Mann, Console Lead for SMS, he had this to say when I asked about the nature of the console FFB master...
Hi, there is only the one control on PS4 which covers the entire range from off to full, you should set it appropriately for your device.
Tim
While it may be the case that the PC in-game master needs to be set 'wide open' at 100 to maintain full dynamic range, it may be the case that the single FFB master in console versions behaves more like the driver Control Panel master, and should be set at a level appropriate to the individual wheel being used. Perhaps we can assume that this is the default setting provided with the profile for that wheel, e.g., the T300 at 75. The other reason for not boosting beyond this default is that the FFB master control comes after the FFB Monitor (telemetry), and therefore any changes to it will not be reflected in telemetry. If our telemetry shows forces close to clipping, and we then increase a control after the visible telemetry (FFB master), there is a good chance that we will actually be causing clipping at output to the wheel, without seeing that clipping in telemetry.
GrimeyDog
06-10-2015, 15:00
Exactly Wahwah!!!
Also the input sensitivity is different for each wheel... Ex: the V2 Can use 25 and will be very responsive and powerfull but the T300/Tx458 may Need 75 because it may not be as sensitive to FFB input. (No facts just as example)
This is what ive heen saying for Months!!!
Jack Spade
06-10-2015, 15:03
On PC the FFB strength or master slider affects absolutely nothing on the calculated FFB signal, set it at zero and have look at the FFB monitor, if itīs the
same on consoles in my opinion this thing is useless here as well and should be set at 100 to be never touched again.
On PC the FFB strength or master slider affects absolutely nothing on the calculated FFB signal, set it at zero and have look at the FFB monitor, if itīs the
same on consoles in my opinion this thing is useless here as well and should be set at 100 to be never touched again.
The difference with consoles is that our final FFB master is more like the Strength of All Forces control in the wheel's driver Control Panel. We don't have that second, redundant FFB master that you have on PC. So the suggestion to run it at 100 on consoles is the same as suggesting to run both the in-game FFB and the Control Panel master at 100. On consoles, we need to set it like the Control Panel FFB master. Wheels like the T300 aren't coping well with this setting 25% past default. If this is the case, as Tim Mann suggests, we need to get this information out there.
On PC the FFB strength or master slider affects absolutely nothing on the calculated FFB signal, set it at zero and have look at the FFB monitor, if itīs the
same on consoles in my opinion this thing is useless here as well and should be set at 100 to be never touched again.
Changing the global FF setting on console definitely affects the feel of the wheel. A higher FF will give you a tighter, weightier feel. Lower FF too much, you will still feel the TF, but the wheel has an overall looser feel. Raising TF will strengthen the tire forces, but you won't get the tightness/weight back unless you raise FF.
I've played around (A LOT) with the TF/FF balance on PS4 with a T300 base. I used to be in the higher FF camp, running FF/TF at 100/65. The problem is, that combination gave me good detail, but the wheel didn't feel as smooth--felt more gear-drive than belt-driven. Reversing the mix 75/100, the wheel was much smoother, but didn't seem to provide the same amount of detail and my laps times suffered a bit. So after a lot of back and forth with different balances and trying to use Steering Gain to help, I've settled on a 75/75 split between FF and TF. I like this the best and am leaving it here for a few reasons. One, it delivers very smooth FFB, with a tight wheel, and a decent amount of weight that's generalized for all cars. From there, I can increase or decrease the overall strength using the in-car master scales. Usually just a few clicks in either direction is all I need. Two, I use Spade's in-car settings, but with this global balance, the default in-car FFB settings feel pretty good. If I'm just curious about a car or track, I can hop in a car and just drive without having to setup the in-car FFB, which means, I don't have to add another track setup save to my game data. Not sure if that's the cause of the save bug, but I like not having to save setups to just test a car/track. And third and most important, the detail is great, and my laps times have never been better or more consistent. And I don't need to run any soft clipping.
Of course, I've made a few other adjustments in the global settings. Scoop Knee, Relative Adjust Gain and Bleed, etc., but I think it's the FF/TF balance that makes the difference, because the differences in feel I described above occur by just changing the TF/FF balance.
Anyway, just my two cents. It's working for me. :)
GrimeyDog
06-10-2015, 16:55
On PC the FFB strength or master slider affects absolutely nothing on the calculated FFB signal, set it at zero and have look at the FFB monitor, if itīs the
same on consoles in my opinion this thing is useless here as well and should be set at 100 to be never touched again.
Nope I Strongly Disagree... as a Console user there is a Notable Difference when Game Master FFB is set to 100% PS4 will take it but Loses much of the Subtle Road Feel.... XBox 1 How ever will Totally Reject in Game 100% FFB and the V2 wheel Feels like Trash!!! The Game is Not even Drivable.... Question What Consoles do you Test on???
Also I can Run anyTrack the 1 in car FFB has it All Weight Transfer, Bump/Curb Feel and Excellent Road Feel... The only Cars that Need added in Car FFB are the FWD Cars and the Formula A Cars i Run the Default in car Settings... Im Not big on the Formula A cars so i havent Spent any time tweeking them.
gruzzlebeard
06-10-2015, 18:25
On PC the FFB strength or master slider affects absolutely nothing on the calculated FFB signal, set it at zero and have look at the FFB monitor, if itīs the
same on consoles in my opinion this thing is useless here as well and should be set at 100 to be never touched again.
Jack Spade and All,
I see all your points. My starting point was just that I wondered that the amplitudes in my telemetry data are almost the same when changing DRR, Scoop, etc. --> as long as my Global FFB/TF is set to 100% - check my videos above. It looks like that somehow my signals are choked down by something?! No room for amplitudes - my signals seemed to be cramped. Isn't this surprising?
The SMS Global FFB default value is only 50% for a CSW V2 in PS4 !! (TF 100%)
If I drive with a plain vanilla setup (means: no changes at all neither in my profile nor in car FFB) I get less oscillations but higher amplitudes in the HuD. The wheel feels not very well. However I think it is a starting point to reconsider how to compile the right settings for FFB,TF, Master Scale, spring settings and steering gain signals.
GrimeyDog
06-10-2015, 18:36
Gruzzlebeard Have you Ran my Settings and Checked your Telemetry and FFB Feel???
gruzzlebeard
06-10-2015, 19:06
Not yet, start now - Yeeeehaaaa
GrimeyDog
06-10-2015, 19:43
Eureeeka!!! So im Finally Sitting at my Sons Set up Tweeking the TX458 and its Going Nicely!!! Using Same Tweek with 65%In Game FFB... Im Messing with the Relative Bleed Now to see if i can get More Bump/Curb Feel... The Road Feel is Great!!! I Need a PS4 T300 Test Pilot Now!!! No Clipping!!!
Jack Spade and All,
I see all your points. My starting point was just that I wondered that the amplitudes in my telemetry data are almost the same when changing DRR, Scoop, etc. --> as long as my Global FFB/TF is set to 100% - check my videos above. It looks like that somehow my signals are choked down by something?! No room for amplitudes - my signals seemed to be cramped. Isn't this surprising?
The SMS Global FFB default value is only 50% for a CSW V2 in PS4 !! (TF 100%)
If I drive with a plain vanilla setup (means: no changes at all neither in my profile nor in car FFB) I get less oscillations but higher amplitudes in the HuD. The wheel feels not very well. However I think it is a starting point to reconsider how to compile the right settings for FFB,TF, Master Scale, spring settings and steering gain signals.
When referring to amplitudes, do you mean the slow, snaking line?
If so, this will become more pronounced if you increase Fy on the in car settings. However, those forces are very strong (your setting on the first video was ~30 reduced from default 100) and combined with the faster forces (your oscillations) can cause clipping if increased too much.
In the video of the RUF at Watkins Glen, the telemetry shows the various forces in action and as far as overall amplitude goes, the signal was often maxed on the graph and overall looked good to me.
The sharp oscillations appeared as you drove over rumble strips. When cornering at high speed the 'amplitude' increases but because the track is laser scanned, there is more track detail (small oscillations from Fx) and combined they take the smoothness from the slow side load forces (Fy) you sometimes see on non-scanned tracks.
The signal generally stays flat across the centre of the graph when driving in a straight line, except for the aforementioned tiny oscillations on laser scanned tracks. Brake and you will see the line stays flat but moves up the graph as both Fx and Fz come into play, add some steering angle and the force increases further due to Mz (tyre twist) and Fy (side load) to give some slight clipping.
All this is evident in your video, should be felt at the wheel on the evidence of the graph and can be balanced by the in car settings. In my experience with the T300, compression settings like Relative Adjust and Soft Clipping are felt more at the wheel than seen on the graph although I've never made big changes to their default settings.
miraculix99
06-10-2015, 21:08
I have noticed this too. From the explanations of the telemetry chart I would expect the highest anticlockwise force when the line is at the top, and the strongest clockwise force when it is at the bottom [or actually the middle... what is that about?]
But my hands seem to tell me that this is not quite the whole story.
I bet if this was happening in 2O2O someone would be able to chuck this whole thing into an AI-reverse engineering mechanic program and get some proper answers of what is connected to what in about ten minutes. sigh
AI reverse engineering! charming way to say to the devs 'give us serious info, instead of making us to your testing guinea pigs
GrimeyDog
06-10-2015, 21:10
https://youtu.be/LTHacN4MdvI
I adjusted My V2 settings for the XB1 TX458 and the PS4 T300 wheel also... Video Proof that it works and No Clipping using 65% in game FFB!!! and the Wheel is still Very strong with Good Road feel.
The TX on XBox 1 Basically has the Same FFB Telemetry that the V2 has on PS4 and XBox 1... The same FFB and Road Feel also its just Not as strong as the V2.
gruzzlebeard
07-10-2015, 10:25
When referring to amplitudes, do you mean the slow, snaking line?
If so, this will become more pronounced if you increase Fy on the in car settings. However, those forces are very strong (your setting on the first video was ~30 reduced from default 100) and combined with the faster forces (your oscillations) can cause clipping if increased too much.
In the video of the RUF at Watkins Glen, the telemetry shows the various forces in action and as far as overall amplitude goes, the signal was often maxed on the graph and overall looked good to me.
The sharp oscillations appeared as you drove over rumble strips. When cornering at high speed the 'amplitude' increases but because the track is laser scanned, there is more track detail (small oscillations from Fx) and combined they take the smoothness from the slow side load forces (Fy) you sometimes see on non-scanned tracks.
The signal generally stays flat across the centre of the graph when driving in a straight line, except for the aforementioned tiny oscillations on laser scanned tracks. Brake and you will see the line stays flat but moves up the graph as both Fx and Fz come into play, add some steering angle and the force increases further due to Mz (tyre twist) and Fy (side load) to give some slight clipping.
All this is evident in your video, should be felt at the wheel on the evidence of the graph and can be balanced by the in car settings. In my experience with the T300, compression settings like Relative Adjust and Soft Clipping are felt more at the wheel than seen on the graph although I've never made big changes to their default settings.
Thanks for the feedback. Lots of information in it. And I need to go through it again when sitting in front of the PS4.
Regarding the snaking line: I didn't expect more amplitudes and oscillation on the straight when accelerating of course. I'm also very happy with the bumps and curbs amplitudes & oscillations. I'm also very happy with the wheel feel.
But before and when cornering I expected a bit more lively telemetry data when braking hard, when ABS is interfering, or when tires are getting locked or when accelerating hard out of corners etc. (and when NOT going over the curbs of course). But there you explained already that this need to be managed with the car FFB settings.
I used Jack Spades FFB car presets and I just changed Master & SoP Scales so far to my purposes. I actually never change the car Fx/Fy/Fz/Mz settings because they should be balanced by Jack Spade for the PC version of the game. So I actually wanted to keep this in sync. But if the FFb behavior of the PC version is really the same as in the PS4 version nobody knows can compare that finally I think - it should be but who the heck knows.
gruzzlebeard
07-10-2015, 10:33
https://youtu.be/LTHacN4MdvI
I adjusted My V2 settings for the XB1 TX458 and the PS4 T300 wheel also... Video Proof that it works and No Clipping using 65% in game FFB!!! and the Wheel is still Very strong with Good Road feel.
The TX on XBox 1 Basically has the Same FFB Telemetry that the V2 has on PS4 and XBox 1... The same FFB and Road Feel also its just Not as strong as the V2.
The telemetry data are looking really promising. Thumbs up
gruzzlebeard
07-10-2015, 11:26
So I reset and recalibrated my wheel and dialed in all wheel, global and car FFB settings from GrimeyDog (RUF GT3 tuning settings are default).
It's the first time that I've got most likely the same telemetry data like you GrimeyDog without Game profile issues - no loss of FFB etc.).
My first impression (after just 2 hours) is that the telemetry data are looking much more lively then with my current setup. The overall FFB feeling is good. I can achieve low 1:45 times constantly sometimes a high 1:44. If you look at the HUD you can see already that the wheel feel itself is of course more nervous and sometimes even a bit notchy.
I also realized that there are some signals in it where I'm not sure if they should be there at all. Some of the peaks are very dominant and I'm getting from time to time some hits to the wheel where I just wonder from where they are coming from. But see my video in the post below.
Of course this I can not judge finally after just a view stints around the track - maybe I just need to get used to it. At the end it is also a matter of taste. Maybe I will need a tweak here and there. Now if we consider to use all FFB ranges and not only FFB/TF = 100 I'm sure that this is a very good starting point for me.
GrimeyDog original settings with advanced SSD "OFF" gives me a better feeling on the wheel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A59fJc6Vu4
with advanced SSD "ON" I find it too notchy and inconsistent:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztY829KDr4Y
GrimeyDog
07-10-2015, 11:34
The telemetry data are looking really promising. Thumbs up
Its all in the Global Settings!!! Once you get your Global Settings Right the Rest is Easy.... The In Car FFB Settings Just Bring out + or - Bump, Curb, Road Feel etc... The TX Feels just as Good/ Same as the V2 just Less Powerful. Weight Transfer everything its all there.
The V2 the input Gain is Very Sensitive so i can use 25% innGame FFB and use the on Wheel to + or - to adjust FFB power/ FFB input Sensitivity... The TX Has No on Wheel FFB adjustment so i used 65% and its Spot on for my FFB taste. The Theory you Must use 100% in Game FFB IMO is False for Consoles.
That was my Sons set up i was using... I Have My PS4,PS3, XB1, Xb360 set up over by My PC... My Son was out and Not on His XB1 so i Finally had a Chance to Tweek for the TX....Feels Really Good.
I Cant Test for PC because i dont Have PCars for PC... Yet... LOL Dunno if im gonna get it for PC... Maybe... I want to upgrade my PC first so i can Run ultra Settings First... Then i will get it... Maybe... LOL.
But For Consoles I Can Say that 100% In Game FFB is False IMO.
GrimeyDog
07-10-2015, 11:45
Gruzzlebeard you have to use the in Car Settings too to balance the tweek out...or just adjust your in car Settings to what you want to feel Most. The Stock in car settings are every thing at 100 and No Sop... You need to try it with the In Car Settings too then Re adjust acording to taste.
gruzzlebeard
07-10-2015, 12:02
I discovered a significant grinding in low speed caused by the car FFB settings. At the wheel center you can feel the grinding significantly. Like a buzz saw.
I think such signals are unrealistic at a speed around 20 kmh/12 mph no acceleration and this small steering lock. Important? I don't know. GrimeyDog maybe you can post a comparison.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOxJkcTSz5s
BTW this is an issue what the PC guys also have identified already. You can dial this out by increasing MZ smoothing from 0 to 20. But it cuts down also some peaks in higher speed I believe.
gruzzlebeard
07-10-2015, 12:08
Gruzzlebeard you have to use the in Car Settings too to balance the tweek out...or just adjust your in car Settings to what you want to feel Most. The Stock in car settings are every thing at 100 and No Sop... You need to try it with the In Car Settings too then Re adjust acording to taste.
Understood. I used your standard car ffb settings from your pdf. Do you mind to send me your exact RUF settings to compare it. I'm sure you can also get rid of the grinding by using other settings like MZ smoothing 20. There is enough FFB dialed in so I can also reduce MSc, MZ etc.
My first impression (after just 2 hours) is that the telemetry data are looking much more lively then with my current setup. The overall FFB feeling is good. I can achieve low 1:45 times constantly sometimes a high 1:44. If you look at the HUD you can see already that the wheel feel itself is of course more nervous and sometimes even a bit notchy.
I also realized that there are some signals in it where I'm not sure if they should be there at all. Some of the peaks are very dominant and I'm getting from time to time some hits to the wheel where I just wonder from where they are coming from. But see my video in the post below.
Of course this I can not judge finally after just a view stints around the track - maybe I just need to get used to it. At the end it is also a matter of taste. Maybe I will need a tweak here and there. Now if we consider to use all FFB ranges and not only FFB/TF = 100 I'm sure that this is a very good starting point for me.
There's a lot of clipping with those set ups when looking at the telemetry. Every time the signal is flattened at the top or bottom of the graph it has been clipped and information is lost. A little clipping is ok but you wouldn't want too much.
The console master FFB control is last in the signal chain and changes don't show on the graph although increasing and decreasing can be felt at the wheel. But, increasing and decreasing the level won't bring back detail lost earlier in the chain.
Titzon Toast
07-10-2015, 13:06
There's a lot of clipping with those set ups when looking at the telemetry. Every time the signal is flattened at the top or bottom of the graph it has been clipped and information is lost. A little clipping is ok but you wouldn't want too much.
The console master FFB control is last in the signal chain and changes don't show on the graph although increasing and decreasing can be felt at the wheel. But, increasing and decreasing the level won't bring back detail lost earlier in the chain.
I'm of the same opinion, having the Master and SOP scales turned up to 100 is far too high imho.
GrimeyDog
07-10-2015, 13:07
Understood. I used your standard car ffb settings from your pdf. Do you mind to send me your exact RUF settings to compare it. I'm sure you can also get rid of the grinding by using other settings like MZ smoothing 20. There is enough FFB dialed in so I can also reduce MSc, MZ etc.
The Ruf Settings are Stock... I Made No Changes to the Car other than Reducing Fuel to 10 laps and Soft tires....
I Have Not Noticed Grinding Feel... But Maybe you can Turn Down the Low Soeed Steering Coefficient to Stop it...I have it Set to 75.
gruzzlebeard
07-10-2015, 13:10
There's a lot of clipping with those set ups when looking at the telemetry. Every time the signal is flattened at the top or bottom of the graph it has been clipped and information is lost. A little clipping is ok but you wouldn't want too much.
The console master FFB control is last in the signal chain and changes don't show on the graph although increasing and decreasing can be felt at the wheel. But, increasing and decreasing the level won't bring back detail lost earlier in the chain.
Yep. That's true. My first target was to get the settings in from GrimeyDog. Before patch 4.0 I was not able to get comparable results at all because of some issues with my game profile data concerning FFB strengths. Now I'm doing regular resets and recalibrations of my wheel when changing global settings. It's now a bit more stabile and I'm happy.
The question is how to reduce the overall FFB now? So the FFB pipeline is:
(Car/Physics) -> (Tire Force) -> (Car FFB departm./tuning) -> (Global FFB wheel presets, St. Gain) -> (FFB HUD) -> (FFB master=100) -> Output -> Wheel
I can go through:
- TF (it's still at 98 and it's measurable in the HUD) --> could be an option- global FFB (it's already down to 25 and it is not measurable in the HUD) --> not preferred.
- Car FFB MasterScale (GrimeyDogs settings are high - so it's possible to reduce this a bit, but I just started with the RUF. I should check some other favourite cars)
- Steering Gain (still standard 1.0 - no experience with that at the moment. will look at this as a last option)
- FFB master=25 so it is already quite low and I cannot measure it with the telemetry data in the HUD) --> not prefered
I think I should go through the global options first, like TF or Steering Gain in order to reduce this a bit. I don't want to tweak the car FFB for every single car.
@rams1de/GrimmeyDog: do you have experience with changes in Steering Gain? I've no clue.
GrimeyDog
07-10-2015, 13:15
There's a lot of clipping with those set ups when looking at the telemetry. Every time the signal is flattened at the top or bottom of the graph it has been clipped and information is lost. A little clipping is ok but you wouldn't want too much.
The console master FFB control is last in the signal chain and changes don't show on the graph although increasing and decreasing can be felt at the wheel. But, increasing and decreasing the level won't bring back detail lost earlier in the chain.
Clipping is Very Wheel Dependent I don't Feel any Signal Loss V2 or TX Wheel... The Graph is Very Smalll Not alot of Room so of course it will hit top and Botton but if you Look Close the line even when its on top or botton its Never Straight unless the Road is Smooth... Watch the Line and the Tire telemetry... wheen.line is Flat there is No Real Tire action going on... Smooth Road surface.
gruzzlebeard
07-10-2015, 13:30
The Ruf Settings are Stock... I Made No Changes to the Car other than Reducing Fuel to 10 laps and Soft tires....
I Have Not Noticed Grinding Feel... But Maybe you can Turn Down the Low Soeed Steering Coefficient to Stop it...I have it Set to 75.
Do you mean "Low speed SPRING Coefficient"? I've it at 0.75 too. So I need to check the tires and fuel. I did nothing on that. But I cannot imagine that this is causing this grinding.
GrimeyDog
07-10-2015, 14:03
That setting its in the New Spring Sliders... I Have it Set to 75... I don't feel any Grinding in Wheel Center.... but i will Check for it... I Hardly ever try and Drive Low Speed though... LOL...
There are Man ways to Tweek and Get same or Similar Feel... But there is No way to keep that Graph from going to the Top or Bottom... The Window is Just Too Small... as Long as its Not Stuck up yhere and Totally Flat Lining when its on top or Bottom FFB is Not Clipping... When i was Tweeking i was Checking for that i know Flat line is Clipping when there is Tire action going on.
By using Lower in Game FFB and the In Car Masters at 100% You leave your self alot of Room to play with the FX, Fy etc settings ...100 in game is too much and leaves no room for other forces.
also 100 in car Masters you feel 100% of what ever forces you put in there..... Running in car Masters at 35 even if you set Fy to 100 you wont feel it becausw the Master is cutting everything over 35... Thats my Theory works well for me.... But Bottom line is there are Too Many settings that are seen so we want to use them all... Most of them are Redundent and Not Needed so in this case to me Less equals More.
That setting its in the New Spring Sliders... I Have it Set to 75... I don't feel any Grinding in Wheel Center.... but i will Check for it... I Hardly ever try and Drive Low Speed though... LOL...
There are Man ways to Tweek and Get same or Similar Feel... But there is No way to keep that Graph from going to the Top or Bottom... The Window is Just Too Small... as Long as its Not Stuck up yhere and Totally Flat Lining when its on top or Bottom FFB is Not Clipping... When i was Tweeking i was Checking for that i know Flat line is Clipping when there is Tire action going on.
By using Lower in Game FFB and the In Car Masters at 100% You leave your self alot of Room to play with the FX, Fy etc settings ...100 in game is too much and leaves no room for other forces.
also 100 in car Masters you feel 100% of what ever forces you put in there..... Running in car Masters at 35 even if you set Fy to 100 you wont feel it becausw the Master is cutting everything over 35... Thats my Theory works well for me.... But Bottom line is there are Too Many settings that are seen so we want to use them all... Most of them are Redundent and Not Needed so in this case to me Less equals More.
Yes you are right, but why SMS did make the calibration menu only available from the homescreen and not into the game, this complicates a lot the tunings and make some comparisons time consuming...
gruzzlebeard
07-10-2015, 14:18
There's a lot of clipping with those set ups when looking at the telemetry. Every time the signal is flattened at the top or bottom of the graph it has been clipped and information is lost. A little clipping is ok but you wouldn't want too much.
The console master FFB control is last in the signal chain and changes don't show on the graph although increasing and decreasing can be felt at the wheel. But, increasing and decreasing the level won't bring back detail lost earlier in the chain.
Clipping is Very Wheel Dependent I don't Feel any Signal Loss V2 or TX Wheel... The Graph is Very Smalll Not alot of Room so of course it will hit top and Botton but if you Look Close the line even when its on top or botton its Never Straight unless the Road is Smooth... Watch the Line and the Tire telemetry... wheen.line is Flat there is No Real Tire action going on... Smooth Road surface.
"To be or not to be that is the question" :D (said Shakespeare)
My personal wheel feel says the FFB is a bit to strong. I like the same amplitudes just on a bit lower level. And this is what counts first.
Looking into the details it is really hard to say if it is clipping or not and I can just make some assumptions.
This is the corner with the highest corner speed on track, highest pressure from downhill to uphill and highest G-forces in the "Esses" corner. Staying away from the curbs and getting the traction and speed out to the long straight is important. So ultimate road and tire feel is key otherwise I will fly away. I tend to say this is still not clipping but close to it. I have even at the top of the peaks some smaller oscillations and no flat lines. Could the wheel feel better? I will see it when tested lower settings Everything else is a bit speculation.
219899
This below is clipping - It happens on some corners where I'm quite harsh on the curbs. Is it important to get the last decent signal? - No, I know that 10 cm to the left and I will be in the dirt and ruin my time. So it might be ok to get clipping for some parts of a second. But In this setup it happens a bit too long, too often and the wheel feel could be maybe better if I reduce the forces (I think).
219900
Titzon Toast
07-10-2015, 14:53
@ Gruzzlebeard
I'll post some settings for you to try later on if you'd like?
gruzzlebeard
07-10-2015, 15:10
Yes you are right, but why SMS did make the calibration menu only available from the homescreen and not into the game, this complicates a lot the tunings and make some comparisons time consuming...
I think it's not wrong having the Global FFB where it is right now. You just should come as close as possible to a certain FFB from where you don't have to tweak necessarily each and every car. If you want to be a perfectionist you can even adjust the FFB per car and track and tires etc.
I would wish to have certain car FFB patterns for the cars. That means SMS has already presets loaded. As an example: I don't believe that the car FFB settings for the GT3 cars should be exactly the same like for road cars.
Or in my opinion patterns should be distinguished in car ffb settings for:
- Drivetrain : RWD/FDW/AWD
- Engine placement: Rear/Mid/Front
- Weight balance: between front and back
These are in reality car characteristics which impact significantly the behavior and forces of a car. Porsche has it's engine and drivetrain at the rear. So weight and forces are different like a Renault with Front engine and Front drivetrain. Dependent on these characteristics cars are tending more to oversteer or understeer. As simple as that.
Don't misunderstand me. Pcars don't need another data structure for that. You can use the current structure - just the settings should be somehow preloaded by SMS or we do it for ourselves.
I've had an interesting chat with JS about this: http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?35147-Baseline-controler-FFB-values-Google-sheet-amp-FCM-Universal&p=1119134&viewfull=1#post1119134 (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?35147-Baseline-controler-FFB-values-Google-sheet-amp-FCM-Universal&p=1119134&viewfull=1#post1119134)
GrimeyDog
07-10-2015, 15:10
Thats Not Clipping Gruzzlebeard thats the Curb... LOL... You can tighten those Lines up By Moving the Relative adjust Clamp from 92 up some... I've Ran it as High as 96 it Feels Very Good but also Makes the FFB more Linar... I don't prefer Linar FFB... Too Much Fight into and out of Combo Corners... As Far as the FFB being Too Strong well that proves My Point Even at 25% In Game FFB the V2 and TX at 65% in Game FFB are Very Strong so you dont Need 100% In Game FFB you lose More than you Gain... The FFB Strength can Be Adjusted to your taste by Re Tweeking the in Car Settins Fy, Fx or just simply by lowering the In Car FFB Masters... You can even take the Short cut like Me and Turn the on Wheel FFB down to 75% thats what i use or even below... Im a Big guy pretty Strong too...LOL...so i need my wheel Strength Beefy or i will oversteer in corners IF My Wheel feel is Too Light.
Th TX is Very Dependent on in Game FFB i Tried it at 25 and Felt next to Nothing... I kept Moving it up until it felt Right 65 was Majic.... So all wheels Relate to the In Game FFB Level based on How Sensitive they are to FFB input... This is Fact based on my test... I have 4 wheels V2, CSR -E, GT2 and the Tx458 they can all use same settings but Need Different In Game FFB Input Levels to feel their best.
gruzzlebeard
07-10-2015, 15:48
That setting its in the New Spring Sliders... I Have it Set to 75... I don't feel any Grinding in Wheel Center.... but i will Check for it... I Hardly ever try and Drive Low Speed though... LOL...
...
So far I think I have exactly the same settings like you have. I took it over from your latest pdf file. To be honest I don't care if there is a grinding or not. You can dial it out easily or you can leave it. The difference is not too big.
But with my bad experience reg. loss of FFB, corrupted profile data etc. I just deeply mistrust the Pcars FFB settings. I want to make sure that you and me have the same results with the same hardware and the same settings in it. That's all.
If this is proofed I will continue with more testing. But if there is a difference I consider to delete the game. Then there is no motivation for me to play this game if I cannot rely on stabile FFB settings.
So I would be grateful if I could use you're settings and experience to compare my system here.
Jack Spade
07-10-2015, 15:49
"To be or not to be that is the question" :D (said Shakespeare)
My personal wheel feel says the FFB is a bit to strong. I like the same amplitudes just on a bit lower level. And this is what counts first.
Looking into the details it is really hard to say if it is clipping or not and I can just make some assumptions.
This is the corner with the highest corner speed on track, highest pressure from downhill to uphill and highest G-forces in the "Esses" corner. Staying away from the curbs and getting the traction and speed out to the long straight is important. So ultimate road and tire feel is key otherwise I will fly away. I tend to say this is still not clipping but close to it. I have even at the top of the peaks some smaller oscillations and no flat lines. Could the wheel feel better? I will see it when tested lower settings Everything else is a bit speculation.
219899
This below is clipping - It happens on some corners where I'm quite harsh on the curbs. Is it important to get the last decent signal? - No, I know that 10 cm to the left and I will be in the dirt and ruin my time. So it might be ok to get clipping for some parts of a second. But In this setup it happens a bit too long, too often and the wheel feel could be maybe better if I reduce the forces (I think).
219900
The first screenshot indicates to me the typical work of Relative Gain signal processing, no clipping there, without it you probably would see a flat
line at the top. There are pretty nasty kerbs in game, would you adjust the global level to them you end up with a weak wheel. On the other side
lowering vertical load in general would give less bumps and other irregularities response. I would leave it at that even if the kerbs clip here and there.
GrimeyDog
07-10-2015, 15:57
Its important to Keep in Mind that the In Car FFB Masters and Settings are a Small Part of the Eqation!!! The Most important parts are #1 Good Global Settings and once you have the Global settings Right #2 you Need to Find the In Game FFB Level that works with your wheel and In Car FFB setting to get the Feel YOU Like with the Least amount of FFB Clipping. Good Global Settings are the Key to everything!!! imo.
The Best thing about PCars is also the Worst!!! Every 1 has Different FFB taste... Some say FM6 FFB is the Best much better than PCars... I Hate FM6 FFB feels like a Giant Spring in My Wheel... Its all about individual Preference.
GrimeyDog
07-10-2015, 16:30
So far I think I have exactly the same settings like you have. I took it over from your latest pdf file. To be honest I don't care if there is a grinding or not. You can dial it out easily or you can leave it. The difference is not too big.
But with my bad experience reg. loss of FFB, corrupted profile data etc. I just deeply mistrust the Pcars FFB settings. I want to make sure that you and me have the same results with the same hardware and the same settings in it. That's all.
If this is proofed I will continue with more testing. But if there is a difference I consider to delete the game. Then there is no motivation for me to play this game if I cannot rely on stabile FFB settings.
So I would be grateful if I could use you're settings and experience to compare my system here.
You Have my Exact Settings.. I deleted and Reset my Profile and Game 1 week ago... But i was Not Having Corrupt data issues... I Reset all just to be sure.
gruzzlebeard
07-10-2015, 16:57
The first screenshot indicates to me the typical work of Relative Gain signal processing, no clipping there, without it you probably would see a flat line at the top. There are pretty nasty kerbs in game, would you adjust the global level to them you end up with a weak wheel. On the other side lowering vertical load in general would give less bumps and other irregularities response. I would leave it at that even if the kerbs clip here and there.
@GrimeyDog and Jack Spade:
Thanks guys this gives me confidence. Thumbs up. I need such references. I played just 2 hours yesterday night. I need some more experience with this new settings with low FFB. thx
gruzzlebeard
07-10-2015, 17:04
Tou Have my Exact Settings.. I deleted and Reset my Profile and Game 1 week ago... But i was Not Having Corrupt data issues... I Reset all just to be sure.
Thank GrimeyDog - yes I have your settings. Don't worry from my side you don't need to reset your settings. I do not trust my save game - that's the point. So if you have also a slight grinding when driving slow than everything is ok. Then we have proofed that Pcars is working in the same way if you have the same hardware and setup.
Certainly, lowering FFB to 25 on a T100RS makes it too weak, however, bumping up the tire force to compensate may work, I haven't tried that.
Personally I think a reasonable explanation of how to tailor certain FFB settings on the cars themselves, would have been enough help for people to know
how to increase certain effects without having to go through every option. I know there is a brief explanation in the menu of some forces, but we could have really
done with a basic pointer from SMS as to how to change basic options, without users of the game having to work it all out and post it on here because there is a lot
of conflicting info.
For what it's worth, with a T100RS I do think the default settings after the recent update, are pretty good. Sometimes you can spend more time fiddling than actually
playing the game.
gruzzlebeard
07-10-2015, 18:07
@ Gruzzlebeard
I'll post some settings for you to try later on if you'd like?
That would be great.
I lowered steering gain from 1.0 to .95 when one set up I tried felt too heavy and a little notchy around the centre of the wheel and that worked out nicely. Subsequently I've experimented with lowering it more and all it appeared to do was reduce FFB strength, go down to zero and there is no FFB at all.
GrimeyDog
07-10-2015, 20:01
So far I think I have exactly the same settings like you have. I took it over from your latest pdf file. To be honest I don't care if there is a grinding or not. You can dial it out easily or you can leave it. The difference is not too big.
But with my bad experience reg. loss of FFB, corrupted profile data etc. I just deeply mistrust the Pcars FFB settings. I want to make sure that you and me have the same results with the same hardware and the same settings in it. That's all.
If this is proofed I will continue with more testing. But if there is a difference I consider to delete the game. Then there is no motivation for me to play this game if I cannot rely on stabile FFB settings.
So I would be grateful if I could use you're settings and experience to compare my system here.
I Can confirm that i see the same Telemetry on the screen when driving slow and turning Sharply... I can not feel it in the wheel but i can hear the sound of the tires Gripping/Sliding as i make the turns that explains the telemetry at low speed tuning...I use head phones when i race i can clearly hear the Tire Dragging sound... make the turns and listen for it...thats what the telemetry is showing at low speed turns but i cant feel it in the wheel unless i hit a Curb or bump.
gruzzlebeard
07-10-2015, 21:17
Fantastic. That means it's reproducible and it's not a one-off problem on my side. :biggrin-new:
Titzon Toast
07-10-2015, 22:37
http://www.isrtv.com/forums/topic/17810-project-cars-force-feedback-tips-and-settings/
Some great reading here lads.
GrimeyDog
07-10-2015, 23:13
I Agree with Most of that... Matter of Fact i described the settings the same in My PDF...For Console i say No in Game 100 FFB Needed...JMO... Not quite sure where this guy stands he said 100 in Game ... then said he had it reversed TM wheel(TM Wheels dont have Power adjustment on wheel I Duuno) 100 and 70 in Game... If He supports the Latter then i also agree.... Just a Matter of Preference.
https://youtu.be/LTHacN4MdvI
I adjusted My V2 settings for the XB1 TX458 and the PS4 T300 wheel also... Video Proof that it works and No Clipping using 65% in game FFB!!! and the Wheel is still Very strong with Good Road feel.
The TX on XBox 1 Basically has the Same FFB Telemetry that the V2 has on PS4 and XBox 1... The same FFB and Road Feel also its just Not as strong as the V2.
Indeed, the telemetry does not show clipping but you are close to the limits, so if you use the full range of the ffb only for the road feel, there is no room for shocks when you hit a wall for instance, that s a choice...
...and the correct one. feeling 100% of whats being communicated about the car on the track is important, feeling 100% of whats being communicated when you bang a wall is absolutely trivial.
I Agree with Most of that... Matter of Fact i described the settings the same in My PDF...For Console i say No in Game 100 FFB Needed...JMO... Not quite sure where this guy stands he said 100 in Game ... then said he had it reversed TM wheel(TM Wheels dont have Power adjustment on wheel I Duuno) 100 and 70 in Game... If He supports the Latter then i also agree.... Just a Matter of Preference.
Agree. I honestly don't think it matters where you set your FFB level, in terms of strength that is. On console, we can use Tyre Force, Master Spindle (per car), FFB master and probably Steering Gain (I need to spend more time increasing this setting to be confident).
They all act like multipliers to me and while there are people using audio analogies who think the signal is effected depending where in the chain the signal strength is set - I don't feel any difference in the wheel when mixing them up so not buying into it just now.
The reason I prefer 100 FFB master is because I can't see the effect of changing this setting on the telemetry HUD and I like to use wheel and graph as I explore the settings.
We see plenty of justifiable complaint in these forums regarding a lack of direct information from the development team, so I will re-post the answer I got directly from Tim Mann, Console Lead for SMS, when I asked him about the nature of the FFB master on consoles.
Hi, there is only the one control on PS4 which covers the entire range from off to full, you should set it appropriately for your device.
Tim
This is contrary to the advice we have heard from the beginning from PC guys, that the in-game FBB master must be set to 100, but that is easily explained by the fact that the console system works slightly differently, in that we don't have both an in-game master and a Control Panel master in the driver software. Since this is the only control we have that dictates the final, post-telemetry output to the wheel, we can look at the FFB master on consoles as being equivalent to the Control Panel master on PC, which defaults appropriate to the device (wheel), just as Tim Mann recommends for the console FFB master. I only know of the default for the T300 on PS4, which sets the FFB master at 75.
Of course, none of this is set in stone, and we are free to experiment with settings wherever we choose. The best we can do is be informed, and in the case of this piece of information, it comes directly from the developer and is platform specific. Still, we are free to do with it as we wish. In a system with so many variables, the more we can lock down with some sense of permanence, particularly as a starting point for new players, or those struggling with their settings, the better.
From there, we have the two global multipliers at either end of the chain, including Tire Force at input, directly bridging between the tire model and in-car settings, and Steering Gain at the end of the chain of calculable forces, prior to telemetry. Both are capable of attenuating or boosting overall strength, with varying degrees of influence over the general feel. Both will be reflected to some extent in telemetry. Then of course we have the in-car settings, positioned between the two multipliers, and prior to the compression/expansion controls (Rel Gain, Scoop, Soft Clip, etc). Only the FFB master comes after telemetry, so you will not be able to see what effect it is having on the actual output to the wheel.
At the very least, the information from Tim Mann regarding the console FFB master should at least dispel the myth that we should treat this setting exactly the same as the suggestions on PC, because its setting is device dependent, rather than absolute across the board. Similar, in that way, to the PC system's Strength of All Forces slider in the driver Control Panel for the specific wheel. That doesn't mean you can't set it to 100 if you want to, it's your wheel and your game. It would simply be contrary to the game developer's recommendations.
GrimeyDog
08-10-2015, 19:03
We see plenty of justifiable complaint in these forums regarding a lack of direct information from the development team, so I will re-post the answer I got directly from Tim Mann, Console Lead for SMS, when I asked him about the nature of the FFB master on consoles.
This is contrary to the advice we have heard from the beginning from PC guys, that the in-game FBB master must be set to 100, but that is easily explained by the fact that the console system works slightly differently, in that we don't have both an in-game master and a Control Panel master in the driver software. Since this is the only control we have that dictates the final, post-telemetry output to the wheel, we can look at the FFB master on consoles as being equivalent to the Control Panel master on PC, which defaults appropriate to the device (wheel), just as Tim Mann recommends for the console FFB master. I only know of the default for the T300 on PS4, which sets the FFB master at 75.
Of course, none of this is set in stone, and we are free to experiment with settings wherever we choose. The best we can do is be informed, and in the case of this piece of information, it comes directly from the developer and is platform specific. Still, we are free to do with it as we wish. In a system with so many variables, the more we can lock down with some sense of permanence, particularly as a starting point for new players, or those struggling with their settings, the better.
From there, we have the two global multipliers at either end of the chain, including Tire Force at input, directly bridging between the tire model and in-car settings, and Steering Gain at the end of the chain of calculable forces, prior to telemetry. Both are capable of attenuating or boosting overall strength, with varying degrees of influence over the general feel. Both will be reflected to some extent in telemetry. Then of course we have the in-car settings, positioned between the two multipliers, and prior to the compression/expansion controls (Rel Gain, Scoop, Soft Clip, etc). Only the FFB master comes after telemetry, so you will not be able to see what effect it is having on the actual output to the wheel.
At the very least, the information from Tim Mann regarding the console FFB master should at least dispel the myth that we should treat this setting exactly the same as the suggestions on PC, because its setting is device dependent, rather than absolute across the board. Similar, in that way, to the PC system's Strength of All Forces slider in the driver Control Panel for the specific wheel. That doesn't mean you can't set it to 100 if you want to, it's your wheel and your game. It would simply be contrary to the game developer's recommendations.
BooooM!!! Thats the Big Aaaah Haaa Moment!!! I've been Screaming this for Months!!! Every 1 is worried about the FFB Graph as long as its Not Flat Lining on Top or Bottom then its Good!!! The Rest Has to be Done by Feel/Trial and Error. You dont See the Effect of 25%/ 50%/100% in Game FFB in the Graph but you can Feel the Difference in the Wheel.... Booom Proof!!!
GrimeyDog
08-10-2015, 19:05
We see plenty of justifiable complaint in these forums regarding a lack of direct information from the development team, so I will re-post the answer I got directly from Tim Mann, Console Lead for SMS, when I asked him about the nature of the FFB master on consoles.
This is contrary to the advice we have heard from the beginning from PC guys, that the in-game FBB master must be set to 100, but that is easily explained by the fact that the console system works slightly differently, in that we don't have both an in-game master and a Control Panel master in the driver software. Since this is the only control we have that dictates the final, post-telemetry output to the wheel, we can look at the FFB master on consoles as being equivalent to the Control Panel master on PC, which defaults appropriate to the device (wheel), just as Tim Mann recommends for the console FFB master. I only know of the default for the T300 on PS4, which sets the FFB master at 75.
Of course, none of this is set in stone, and we are free to experiment with settings wherever we choose. The best we can do is be informed, and in the case of this piece of information, it comes directly from the developer and is platform specific. Still, we are free to do with it as we wish. In a system with so many variables, the more we can lock down with some sense of permanence, particularly as a starting point for new players, or those struggling with their settings, the better.
From there, we have the two global multipliers at either end of the chain, including Tire Force at input, directly bridging between the tire model and in-car settings, and Steering Gain at the end of the chain of calculable forces, prior to telemetry. Both are capable of attenuating or boosting overall strength, with varying degrees of influence over the general feel. Both will be reflected to some extent in telemetry. Then of course we have the in-car settings, positioned between the two multipliers, and prior to the compression/expansion controls (Rel Gain, Scoop, Soft Clip, etc). Only the FFB master comes after telemetry, so you will not be able to see what effect it is having on the actual output to the wheel.
At the very least, the information from Tim Mann regarding the console FFB master should at least dispel the myth that we should treat this setting exactly the same as the suggestions on PC, because its setting is device dependent, rather than absolute across the board. Similar, in that way, to the PC system's Strength of All Forces slider in the driver Control Panel for the specific wheel. That doesn't mean you can't set it to 100 if you want to, it's your wheel and your game. It would simply be contrary to the game developer's recommendations.
Im Going to Frame this Post in Gold Leaf and Hang it on My Man Kave Wall!!!
gruzzlebeard
09-10-2015, 10:23
We see plenty of justifiable complaint in these forums regarding a lack of direct information from the development team, so I will re-post the answer I got directly from Tim Mann, Console Lead for SMS, when I asked him about the nature of the FFB master on consoles.
Quote Originally Posted by Tim Mann
Hi, there is only the one control on PS4 which covers the entire range from off to full, you should set it appropriately for your device.
Tim
This is contrary to the advice we have heard from the beginning from PC guys, that the in-game FBB master must be set to 100, but that is easily explained by the fact that the console system works slightly differently, in that we don't have both an in-game master and a Control Panel master in the driver software. Since this is the only control we have that dictates the final, post-telemetry output to the wheel, we can look at the FFB master on consoles as being equivalent to the Control Panel master on PC, which defaults appropriate to the device (wheel), just as Tim Mann recommends for the console FFB master. I only know of the default for the T300 on PS4, which sets the FFB master at 75. .
Brilliant summery and conclusion. This makes now pretty clear how it should work for us as PS4 Users. The SMS default FFB master is at 50% for the Fanatec CSW V2 btw.
But still I'm just a bit confused about the CSW V2 in-wheel tuning functionality of "FF" (Force Feedback). This defines the maximum strength of the motor when force feedback effects from software / games are sent to the wheel. Actually this is exactly what the PC guys are calling the wheel "Control Panel" or "Logitech Profiler".
As CSW V2 users we have actually the same options like PC users. It's now just a question if we adjust game Master FFB or FF in wheel or both at the same time? Currently I'm using GrimeyDogs settings and there are both options in use.
My general opinion is that the signals should come from the game where ever possible. I'm afraid that the signals could be messed up when using wheel FF + game FFB master all together at the same time.
Brilliant summery and conclusion. This makes now pretty clear how it should work for us as PS4 Users. The SMS default FFB master is at 50% for the Fanatec CSW V2 btw.
But still I'm just a bit confused about the CSW V2 in-wheel tuning functionality of "FF" (Force Feedback). This defines the maximum strength of the motor when force feedback effects from software / games are sent to the wheel. Actually this is exactly what the PC guys are calling the wheel "Control Panel" or "Logitech Profiler".
As CSW V2 users we have actually the same options like PC users. It's now just a question if we adjust game Master FFB or FF in wheel or both at the same time? Currently I'm using GrimeyDogs settings and there are both options in use.
My general opinion is that the signals should come from the game where ever possible. I'm afraid that the signals could be messed up when using wheel FF + game FFB master all together at the same time.
Hallo Gruzzlebeard
Have you test your Settings from your Signatur with InGame FFB set to default 50,i have Test it and i mean
you fell more deference from the lower and middle Forces.Incar FFB i use JS Fy+SopLateral,for me it feels
verry good.Gredding Hotty;):D
GrimeyDog
09-10-2015, 11:44
Brilliant summery and conclusion. This makes now pretty clear how it should work for us as PS4 Users. The SMS default FFB master is at 50% for the Fanatec CSW V2 btw.
But still I'm just a bit confused about the CSW V2 in-wheel tuning functionality of "FF" (Force Feedback). This defines the maximum strength of the motor when force feedback effects from software / games are sent to the wheel. Actually this is exactly what the PC guys are calling the wheel "Control Panel" or "Logitech Profiler".
As CSW V2 users we have actually the same options like PC users. It's now just a question if we adjust game Master FFB or FF in wheel or both at the same time? Currently I'm using GrimeyDogs settings and there are both options in use.
My general opinion is that the signals should come from the game where ever possible. I'm afraid that the signals could be messed up when using wheel FF + game FFB master all together at the same time.
Dont worry it works Fine like that... I Have my wheel set to 75% using 25%In Game FFB Feels Great and Very Powerful... You can turn wheel up or down as much as you want to until the FFB is at the Strength you Want it to be...and using the Tweek Wheel Temp only gets 95°F to 105°F Max depending on how hot your environment is...usually 98°F to 101°F even after Hours of Using the Wheel.... The Wheel Temp is what Concerns Me Most but these temps are Low for the Wheel its a Good temp Range...when i was using 100% innGame The Wheelngot as high as 130°F!!! i even Contacted Fanatec they said 130°F was ok so 105°F is Even Better the wheel willnHave a Longer Life Span.... I been using a Infrared thermometer to Moniter Temp.
I Have a New Tweek coming out Even More Balanced with Diff Scoop Settings... Keeps the Line from Hitting the Top and Bottom Soo Much... Really Good Feel Too!!! With this Next Tweek i think i Finally Cracked the Code!!! its all a Numbers game to keep the Forces Balanced so they all work together... Im Pretty Sure i got it and there is Pleanty of Room to adjust Every Settingbto personal Taste.
GrimeyDog
09-10-2015, 11:55
Gruzzlebeard Dont forget the FOR setting on the V2!!! It controls the Bump and Road Feel + or - without having a impact on the overal FFB/Wheel Torque. New Tweek will be the Best and Final 1!!! Eureeka i Finaly Got it!!!! Feeling Really Good about it!!!
Jack Spade
09-10-2015, 12:24
Brilliant summery and conclusion. This makes now pretty clear how it should work for us as PS4 Users. The SMS default FFB master is at 50% for the Fanatec CSW V2 btw.
But still I'm just a bit confused about the CSW V2 in-wheel tuning functionality of "FF" (Force Feedback). This defines the maximum strength of the motor when force feedback effects from software / games are sent to the wheel. Actually this is exactly what the PC guys are calling the wheel "Control Panel" or "Logitech Profiler".
As CSW V2 users we have actually the same options like PC users. It's now just a question if we adjust game Master FFB or FF in wheel or both at the same time? Currently I'm using GrimeyDogs settings and there are both options in use.
My general opinion is that the signals should come from the game where ever possible. I'm afraid that the signals could be messed up when using wheel FF + game FFB master all together at the same time.
FF lower than 100 enlarges the dead zone, linearity is not affected, For makes the wheel non linear, for reference go here:
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?35147-Baseline-controler-FFB-values-Google-sheet-amp-FCM-Universal&p=1107336&viewfull=1#post1107336
gruzzlebeard
09-10-2015, 12:48
Yes thanks, I forgot that at that moment - so even more I believe changing in-wheel values should be maybe the last option.
GrimeyDog
09-10-2015, 13:57
FF lower than 100 enlarges the dead zone, linearity is not affected, For makes the wheel non linear, for reference go here:
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?35147-Baseline-controler-FFB-values-Google-sheet-amp-FCM-Universal&p=1107336&viewfull=1#post1107336
I don't Even Care about the In Game FFB anymore... That Mystery is Solved... For me i Treat it Like a Volume Control...Feed the wheel enough FFB until i start Losing the Subtle Road Feel... That's when its Clipping at the Wheel.and it Doe's Not and Will Not Show in the FFB Graph you Have to set that by Feel....
as of Now its All About the Global Settings!!! I Have Good Formula/Theory on How to Balance them... Its Working Very Well and Leaves Plenty Room for the In Car FFB settings to be adjusted to individual Taste by the user with Minimal to No Clipping.... All Wheels will be able to use it with a Few Pre Set Simple adjustments to the Global... i will provide the formula for all who want it... No Calculator Needed.
IMO There are Two Types of FFB Clipping..
1) Clipping you See is Cause by the Global Settings and In Car FFB settings... That's the Clipping You see in the FFB Graph.
2) Clipping at the Wheel you dont See it in the Graph but can Clearly Feel it when you Lose FFB Effects at the Wheel...That's Caused by Feeding the Wheel More FFB Signal than it can Handle... Even if the Global and In Car FFB Settings are Balanced Correctly when you add 100% in Game FFB to the Mix of the Global and in Car FFB settings you may Cause Clipping at the wheel... IMO the percentage of in Game FFB that you feed the wheel is Very dependent on How Much FFB input your wheel can Take... because of this it is My opinion from testing on Console that The In Game Master FFB Setting Needs to be adjusted and Treated as a Volume Control after the Global and in Car FFB is and Balanced and set to personal taste.
I own and Have personally tested PCars on PS4 with the CSW V2, CSR-E, 911 GT2
XBox 1 CSW V2 and TM 458
All of the wheels can use the Same Global Settings but for best performance the In Game Master FFB Must be adjusted per wheel on Console.
gruzzlebeard
09-10-2015, 14:38
GrimeyDog that's ok what you're saying. At the moment I just don't like the idea having in-wheel FF on 75% and in-game FFB on 25% at the same time. Because both should do actually the same. So why not leaving the CSW base to 100% and decreasing therefore in-game FFB or TF or Master Scale? This is want I want to find out.
You've tested it quite extensive and you ended up with this 75/25 ratio. I just need to test that out in a couple of minutes. At the moment I'm talking in theory because I'm not at the PS.
GrimeyDog
09-10-2015, 15:42
GrimeyDog that's ok what you're saying. At the moment I just don't like the idea having in-wheel FF on 75% and in-game FFB on 25% at the same time. Because both should do actually the same. So why not leaving the CSW base to 100% and decreasing therefore in-game FFB or TF or Master Scale? This is want I want to find out.
You've tested it quite extensive and you ended up with this 75/25 ratio. I just need to test that out in a couple of minutes. At the moment I'm talking in theory because I'm not at the PS.
You Can Leave your wheel at 100%FFB but even at 25% In Game FFB output 100% FFB on the V2 is Too Strong for Me to Race with.. Have you Tried My Tweek with 100% on Wheel FFB..... But any way with the New Tweek ive Raised the In Game FFB to 65 and on Wheel FFB to 80 to account for some Changes Made in the Global Settings... On Wheel FFB has No Effect on the Game its just there to let you dial in how strong you want the Wheel.
GrimeyDog
09-10-2015, 15:47
FF lower than 100 enlarges the dead zone, linearity is not affected, For makes the wheel non linear, for reference go here:
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?35147-Baseline-controler-FFB-values-Google-sheet-amp-FCM-Universal&p=1107336&viewfull=1#post1107336
In Game FFB 100% Has Nothing to do with Dead Zone or Wheel FFB being more Linear... That is Adjusted with the Relative adjust Bleed setting, Scoop Settings first then tweek the Half Clip and Full Clip if Needed to Get your desired wheel Feel... JMO based on My testing... BTW I dont use the Half or Fill Clip settings
.
In Game Master FFB Level just determines How Much Total power you want to Feed the Wheel after the other settings have done their work.... The In Game FFB is the LAST Link in the Chain before it goe's to the wheel....It can Add More Power but Will Not decrease the the Power Level of the Global, In Car FFB Settings.
Feeding the wheel too Much with In Game Master FFB Level after the Global and in Car FFB Settings have done their work will Creat Clipping at the wheel... It wont be seen in the FFB Graph but will be felt in the wheel.
gruzzlebeard
09-10-2015, 16:33
Hallo Gruzzlebeard
Have you test your Settings from your Signatur with InGame FFB set to default 50,i have Test it and i mean
you fell more deference from the lower and middle Forces.Incar FFB i use JS Fy+SopLateral,for me it feels
verry good.Gredding Hotty;):D
Thanks for your hint, Yes I'm going to test now some variants. Not sure if I'm going to mix JS presets with GrimeyDogs global settings. For the moment I will stick to the car FFB of Grimey and test some global in-game FFB variants.
GrimeyDog
09-10-2015, 16:50
Thanks for your hint, Yes I'm going to test now some variants. Not sure if I'm going to mix JS presets with GrimeyDogs global settings. For the moment I will stick to the car FFB of Grimey and test some global in-game FFB variants.
Gruzzlebeard the Global is where the Majic Happens...the In Car FFB can be Set How ever you like it to bring out the feel that you want... Global is Most important of all.... My in car is set the way it is only because of how the global is set but as you see their is pleanty of Room to increase or decrease certain Settings.
miraculix99
09-10-2015, 18:29
We see plenty of justifiable complaint in these forums regarding a lack of direct information from the development team, so I will re-post the answer I got directly from Tim Mann, Console Lead for SMS, when I asked him about the nature of the FFB master on consoles.
This is contrary to the advice we have heard from the beginning from PC guys, that the in-game FBB master must be set to 100, but that is easily explained by the fact that the console system works slightly differently, in that we don't have both an in-game master and a Control Panel master in the driver software. Since this is the only control we have that dictates the final, post-telemetry output to the wheel, we can look at the FFB master on consoles as being equivalent to the Control Panel master on PC, which defaults appropriate to the device (wheel), just as Tim Mann recommends for the console FFB master. I only know of the default for the T300 on PS4, which sets the FFB master at 75.
Of course, none of this is set in stone, and we are free to experiment with settings wherever we choose. The best we can do is be informed, and in the case of this piece of information, it comes directly from the developer and is platform specific. Still, we are free to do with it as we wish. In a system with so many variables, the more we can lock down with some sense of permanence, particularly as a starting point for new players, or those struggling with their settings, the better.
From there, we have the two global multipliers at either end of the chain, including Tire Force at input, directly bridging between the tire model and in-car settings, and Steering Gain at the end of the chain of calculable forces, prior to telemetry. Both are capable of attenuating or boosting overall strength, with varying degrees of influence over the general feel. Both will be reflected to some extent in telemetry. Then of course we have the in-car settings, positioned between the two multipliers, and prior to the compression/expansion controls (Rel Gain, Scoop, Soft Clip, etc). Only the FFB master comes after telemetry, so you will not be able to see what effect it is having on the actual output to the wheel.
At the very least, the information from Tim Mann regarding the console FFB master should at least dispel the myth that we should treat this setting exactly the same as the suggestions on PC, because its setting is device dependent, rather than absolute across the board. Similar, in that way, to the PC system's Strength of All Forces slider in the driver Control Panel for the specific wheel. That doesn't mean you can't set it to 100 if you want to, it's your wheel and your game. It would simply be contrary to the game developer's recommendations.
"From there, we have the two global multipliers at either end of the chain, including Tire Force at input, directly bridging between the tire model and in-car settings, and Steering Gain at the end of the chain of calculable forces, prior to telemetry. Both are capable of attenuating or boosting overall strength, with varying degrees of influence over the general feel. Both will be reflected to some extent in telemetry. Then of course we have the in-car settings, positioned between the two multipliers, and prior to the compression/expansion controls (Rel Gain, Scoop, Soft Clip, etc). Only the FFB master comes after telemetry, so you will not be able to see what effect it is having on the actual output to the wheel."
it can't be highlighted enough!
yep. here it is exactly described how the signal chain goes (for consoles). that's why you get clipping and saturation effects at the wheel even when you have no clippings in the telemetry window, but set the FFB master to high (especially if set to 100). it'd be great if somebody could finally come up with a diagram scribble carved in stone...;-)
GrimeyDog
09-10-2015, 18:36
Another Random Fact about the FFB Meter is People seem concerned when the Graph goe's to the Top or Bottom... The Line is By Default going to go to the Top or Bottom Because it is Showing which Side of the Car the Weight Transfer is going to... I believe Right Turns the line goe's Top and Left the Line goe's Bottom... It is only a Concern when the Line Goe's Top/Bottom and Flat Lines and shows No Spikes or Movement... Thats Clipping. When the Line is Top/Bottom on a Bumpy Curb and Has Readable FFB Spikes that is Normal.
Another Random Fact about the FFB Meter is People seem concerned when the Graph goe's to the Top or Bottom... The Line is By Default going to go to the Top or Bottom Because it is Showing which Side of the Car the Weight Transfer is going to... I believe Right Turns the line goe's Top and Left the Line goe's Bottom... It is only a Concern whennthe Line Goe's Top/Bottom and Flat Lines and shows No Spikes or Movement... Thats Clipping. When the Line is Top/Bottom on a Bumpy Curb and Has Readable FFB Spikes that is Normal.
Yes, I get the same impression but it can't be that simple when thinking it through. Turning left or right is a lateral force (2 variables) one of four different forces that accumulate to give the total force feedback strength.
Add in longitudinal force for instance. That is also directional with braking going forwards and acceleration backwards (2 more variables). Next vertical forces will be felt in all four directions, as weight shifts forwards, backwards and sideways (4 variables).
I'm not sure about twisting force. It must be felt left and right under steering but steering while braking and accelerating should also impact on twisting force (2 or more variables).
How can a two-directional graph tell us what is happening across 2x2x4x2 = 32 variables contributing to overall force or as I suspect many more?
I believe the graph is showing the change in total force and it is the shape of the signal that gives us the most telling information (outside of the feel at wheel).
GrimeyDog
09-10-2015, 23:11
Yes, I get the same impression but it can't be that simple when thinking it through. Turning left or right is a lateral force (2 variables) one of four different forces that accumulate to give the total force feedback strength.
Add in longitudinal force for instance. That is also directional with braking going forwards and acceleration backwards (2 more variables). Next vertical forces will be felt in all four directions, as weight shifts forwards, backwards and sideways (4 variables).
I'm not sure about twisting force. It must be felt left and right under steering but steering while braking and accelerating should also impact on twisting force (2 or more variables).
How can a two-directional graph tell us what is happening across 2x2x4x2 = 32 variables contributing to overall force or as I suspect many more?
I believe the graph is showing the change in total force and it is the shape of the signal that gives us the most telling information (outside of the feel at wheel).
Yup its that Simple... Remeber the Tires are on Screen with their own level Meters. Tires are Not part of the FFB Graph
They all act like multipliers to me and while there are people using audio analogies who think the signal is effected depending where in the chain the signal strength is set - I don't feel any difference in the wheel when mixing them up so not buying into it just now.
They are indeed multipliers but they have a significant impact on the overall FFB due to their different positions within the chain. Only if you run completely linear settings do they not matter.. but this would only be true for high end (2000$+) direct drive wheels.
So as I understand it, this is the order:
1) Tire Force/Individual car Master Scale comes first. This directly multiplies the force strength coming from the tires. -> this feeds into the complex FFB mangling system of Relative Adjust Gain, Scoop, Soft Clip etc.
2) Steering Gain is the final output gain before the actual manufacturers driver gain control..
3) Which brings us to the FFB Strength parameter which is almost certainly the final multiplier of the wheel manufacturers driver on the consoles (and thus equal to the FFB Strength parameters in the Logitech or Thrustmaster Control Panel). On the PC you can actually hard-limit the FFB output of the game with this parameter which is why you should always keep it at 100 on the PC or you will lose dynamic range.
So, knowing this it becomes immediately apparent that 1) Tire Force / individual car Master Scale does something very different to 2) Steering Gain. TF/MS is the actual input that goes to the system which means you can "scale" how hard the forces hit the non-linear stuff like Relative Adjust and Soft Clip. Then you can use Steering Gain to dial it back down (it's the output multiplier) to avoid clipping. Finally, on the consoles, you should probably treat the FFB Strength parameter as the wheel drivers own FFB strength parameter so to get maximum linear response for a TX 458 wheel you'd set this to around 65-75.
It is also worth noting that Fy forces are very dominant so I still think it is a very good idea to lower them by quite a bit on most cars. It is quite tire specific though but at least on the road cars I end up with about 60 to 80% of the Mz parameter which I usually leave at 100 as the base level. All the other forces are then tweaked around this Mz value (for instance Fz is usually a bit higher if you want to feel weight transfer and such).
I've also noticed that Relative Adjust Clamp can get you some weird buggy behavior when forces hit the Relative Adjust system too hard.. which is why I usually lower Tire Force to around 50 and then compensate instead at the output with Steering Gain. Or you can set the clamp to 200 and then really "drive" the system with gain at 130 or more. When it's not "bugging out" (the bug causes massive spikes and feels really odd) you can increase the Bleed value all the way to 0.25 or even more which improves the fidelity of feeling the tires, at least in my opinion.
Another Random Fact about the FFB Meter is People seem concerned when the Graph goe's to the Top or Bottom... The Line is By Default going to go to the Top or Bottom Because it is Showing which Side of the Car the Weight Transfer is going to... I believe Right Turns the line goe's Top and Left the Line goe's Bottom... It is only a Concern whennthe Line Goe's Top/Bottom and Flat Lines and shows No Spikes or Movement... Thats Clipping. When the Line is Top/Bottom on a Bumpy Curb and Has Readable FFB Spikes that is Normal.
Yes, when the stuff goes to the top or bottom on curbs it is indeed "normal".. but it is clipping. Lets call it what it is. When something goes all the way to the top or bottom, it always indicates clipping but a tiny spike that clips is not usually a problem. Just like with audio material, most commercial mixes are blatantly clipping transients, which causes some momentarily high distortion but due to the short nature of the clipping it's of no real consequence (though it does increase listeners fatigue).
How can a two-directional graph tell us what is happening across 2x2x4x2 = 32 variables contributing to overall force or as I suspect many more?
.. just like a 2D waveform view of Audio can give us all the things we need to hear pitch, tonality and "distance" (reverb in a room or a dry room.. aka the "Z" axis in the mix).
If you want to get a bit complex it has to do with phase relationships of the various forces. For instance, if you increase Fz forces on an individual car, you do NOT always get stronger forces. On the contrary.. the overall FFB will usually feel weaker. Why? Because there will be some phase cancellation going on depending on what the tires are doing, thus communicating the feel of the car to you. It's a complex soup of signals. Nothing simple about it at all and thus Fx, Fy, Fz and Mz are interrelated with one another. So the only thing that really matters between these values are the RATIOS of one to another, not the absolute values themselves. At least this is my take on it.
Bmanic you are correct from what i can tell.I finally have what i think is really good ffb. Problem is bits of the puzzle are in different places all over these forums. Heres what i have found. I used skoader wheel checker let it give you the best numbers for ddr,knee,scoop use these! Default game ffb settings for your wheel as it varys between wheel companies.No soft clipping at least on the t300 and 1.10rag .30rab .90rac .Yes the rab definitely has to do with tire and brake feel so what i did was turn it up till it felt weird and back it off till i was comfortable with it.You will know when its up too high. Use steering gain to get the weight you want in the wheel and that was it. I think i settled at .80 on the gain. Take your number for scoop or knee the smaller one and add that or something close to the tf.Thats it you should have something pretty good at this point.Had a blast last night! Finally could catch a 4 wheel drift in a corner and played for 6 hours last night.:) Actually got on the boards yep i saw you on them grimey.lol Now i can actually start playing finally and no more screwing around with settings. One more thing im using these with jacks sop settings. Hope this helps somebody out.
Since i get you're playing on the PS4, did you put the overall force, in the windows driver, the same as you are in controller menu in pCars, on the PS4 ? That way, FCM would give you data that are aligned with pCars.
SweeetFA
10-10-2015, 12:50
Here's a quick shot of my TX :)
220093
Sweetfa thats what i was trying to get across to everyone.Use the tool. Yours are close to mine but different. Ddr is the same but my scoop knee is .82 and scoop reduction is .35. I am assuming due to manufacturing tolerance.
I've completely missed that app.. where can I find it? I've actually come to pretty similar values on my own. Scoop knee at around 0.87 and reduction about 0.38 or so..
EDIT: never mind.. found it.
Titzon Toast
10-10-2015, 19:47
I've completely missed that app.. where can I find it? I've actually come to pretty similar values on my own. Scoop knee at around 0.87 and reduction about 0.38 or so..
EDIT: never mind.. found it.
Can you tell where you found this app please sir?
Thank you.
Can you tell where you found this app please sir?
Thank you.
It's in the PC Support section (http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?35147-Baseline-controler-FFB-values-Google-sheet-amp-FCM-Universal)
Heres what I came up with for t300
ffb 75
adv off
tf135
pwm .06
pws .04
wps .04
drr .12
drf .02
rag 1.10
rab .30
rac .95
sk .82
sr .43
s gain .80
Try it and see what you think at this point its the best ive gotten.
tennenbaum
11-10-2015, 22:52
.. just like a 2D waveform view of Audio can give us all the things we need to hear pitch, tonality and "distance" (reverb in a room or a dry room.. aka the "Z" axis in the mix).
If you want to get a bit complex it has to do with phase relationships of the various forces. For instance, if you increase Fz forces on an individual car, you do NOT always get stronger forces. On the contrary.. the overall FFB will usually feel weaker. Why? Because there will be some phase cancellation going on depending on what the tires are doing, thus communicating the feel of the car to you. It's a complex soup of signals. Nothing simple about it at all and thus Fx, Fy, Fz and Mz are interrelated with one another. So the only thing that really matters between these values are the RATIOS of one to another, not the absolute values themselves. At least this is my take on it.
EDIT 29.02.2016
Everything in the old text marked red needs a rewrite. At the time i wrote the post i wasn't aware that Fy and Fx, and for a very small part even Fz, ACTUALLY DO HAVE AN EFFECT to the torque of the steering axis, thus steering wheel, due to the scrub radius. Scrub radius is the result of Caster angle and Angle of King Pin Inclination (KPI). I did some research since then, and it can be assumed now to be correct to say, that Mz (same as Fm) in the game is purely the self aligning force of the tire itself - un-independently from the steering geometry, or better said when measured, then usually Caster = 0, and KPI = 0. (The attached picture is still fully valid.) Saying so the red marked part of my older text was simply wrong!
Instead especially Fy does turn the wheel in a sim as well as in reality due to "pneumatic" and "mechanical" trail caused by the Caster Angle. If the KPI angle is significantly ≠ 0, Fx can have the same strong effect as Fy. While you can't adjust KPI in pCars, you can change the Caster angle. Which is a nice way to test the influence of Fy to the steering torque (the weight of your wheel): Set the caster to lower values, steering gets lighter, set it to higher values steering gets heavier. Now change Fy too, and you see both settings correlate witch each other in the correct physical way. What is still true in my text below is that Mz helps a lot to feel the perfect slip angle, meaning to steer at the best possible steering angle at every given moment: When Mz reaches its peak point (as in attached picture shown) you know that the tire is close to develop its highest Fy force. And since Mz looses strength shortly before Fy starts to decrease, Mz is great indicator to let you feel when you're close to loose friction (and understeer starts).
Also important: For long i was convinced that Fx, Fy, Fz are summarized by the games' computation like vectors. This is NOT the case, as far as i can judge by now. Each force of Fx Fy Fz Mz gets individually "fed" into the simulation of the steering rack with its individual steering geometries of the different cars.
". just like a 2D waveform view of Audio can give us all the things we need to hear pitch, tonality and "distance" (reverb in a room or a dry room.. aka the "Z" axis in the mix)."
Best way to explain how it's possibly that a simple 2D-one-channel-signal can carry all the many-more-dimensional-info.
And yes, it's the RATIO of Fx, Fy, Fz, Fm that is important, not the absolute value of each.
bmaniac puts a nice spotlight on the FFB system's core that is widely not fully understood.
I found it interesting to have a closer look on the slip angle. I attached a diagram showing how different forces build up and disappear again, while others stay longer. I hope it may lead to a deeper understanding of how PCars provides the FFB signal in general.
To get a quicker idea for what the graphs stand for, remember the slip angle is the change of degrees the tire is turned away to the right or left from its forward movement. The essentiell things actually happen - depending from the tire's friction gradient - between 3 degrees (race car tires, very sensitive therefore tricky to steer) and 15 degree (stock cars tires, forgiving steering).
BTW: PCars sim model uses race car tire characteristics, so tires that are more sticky with higher friction gradients leading to peak-forces around 4-8 degrees slip angle, while Forza6 uses a tire-model with tires being less sticky, therefore having less steep slopes of forces with slip angles creating force-peaks around 8 - 15 degrees. That is - simply put - one of the reasons why Forza 6 is more forgiving at lower speeds with not-high-performance cars, but hard to handle at higher speeds with powerful cars, because there is less tire grip. The different characteristics lead to a quite different gaming experience: In PCars cars break out rather all of sudden, and if it happens it's hard to counter-steer, while in Forza cars start to slip earlier but can be counter- steered more intuitively (as with a real every-day car).
In other words: The slip angle builds up newly every time you change steering direction. Even if you're cornering hard, just by correcting your steering angle a bit, physic-wise (from the perspective of the tire) every steering movement leads to a new slip angle. These are the pretty short moments you feel the Fm (=Mz) force. Which is by the way the only force that makes a real steering wheel turn. Therefore - if you're looking for the utmost reality simulation - you only opt for Mz. It's half the fun, but that comes closest to what a real steering rack does in reality. I come to that later.
It helps to understand that a tire can run almost free of building up Fx, Fy and Fm Forces even while being turned on curved movement path, as long as you don't force the tire by your steering (or braking or accelerating) to "leave" that "free run zone". You can see Fy and Fx in the telemetry of the hud: the traction circles represent the vector sums:no: of Fy and Fx. As you can see, you can go around a curve even while there are almost no Fy and Fx forces at work (traction circle small).
Though the circle of traction doesn't show the Fm force that represents the torque force effecting the steering axis. Which is in reality the only and therefore the most important force you can feel at the steering wheel. At that point the diagram comes into play: You can see that the Fy force (red) stays pretty stable after you turned in, while Fm occurs only during a range between aprrox. 1 - 8 degrees. Fm actually disappears and even gets a bit negative when slip angle is more than 10 degrees. (NB: Of course every type of tire has different graphs due to different friction characteristics, etc.. Also depending from camber, caster, temperature, etc.)
And here comes an effect a lot of players are not aware of:
You may add Fy to your FFB mix. (The default setting is: Fx = 100, Fy = 100, Fz = 100, Fm = 100). Due to that setting you feel the Fy force (lateral force) practically as FFB at your wheel during the entire time you're turning in. BUT in reality - except some very minor mini vibrations - you don't feel Fy on a real steering wheel. Fy is not "transported" to the steering rack of a car. SEE REMARK BELOW*
How come? The lateral effective Fy force effects the tire and its steering knuckle, so Fy force gets transformed to forces effecting the body of the car, therefore forcing the car on its actual cornering movement path, BUT it does not have any effect on the torque of the steering rack. The only torque of the steering wheel is decribed by Fm. And the reasons Fm builds up (green graph) are different to Fy.
The same applies to Fx and Fz. In reality these longitudinal forces (accelerating and braking) and vertical forces (bumps, curbs, car's weight shifts, etc.) DO NOT effect the wheels torque. A steering wheel can only "torque", it CAN NOT move in the direction X, Y or Z. SEE REMARK BELOW**
As a result of these "true physics" if you want to get a "realistic" steering feeling, you have to set Fy, Fx and Fz to 0, only keeping Fm alive.
So why does PCars FFB system offer to add Fy, Fx, Fz (and SoP an Guts) to the over all signal, even when we know that a steering rack can't represent these forces in reality?
Well, by adding these different forces into the FFB "mix" you create torque-rumbling-patterns which have not much to do with reality, but since you and your steering wheel build a kind of feedback loop, the brain re-decodes the rumbling- patterns. By re-decoding the patterns you kind of recreate the original multi-dimensional tire forces, plus non-tire force like "Gut" G forces and "SoP" Seat of Pants effects. You can call the latter "canned" effects, at least you "canned" it by yourself.
As a matter of fact what I call "re-decoding" works in a funny, called intuitive, way: You know what you're doing (by steering) and you have an idea how the G-forces effect our car, while you feel the FFB rumbling = strength of torque patterns. The brain puts both together, therefore "learning" the language of the FFB , i.e. re-interpreting the patterns by remembering what the patterns were originally meant to tell.
That's why a certain FFB setting feels realistic to the the one person who learned the individual language of the FFB due to his/her individual FFB settings, while the same FFB setting feels strange to somebody else.
However, due to that fact that you can build your FFB mix in a way that it tells you indeed the different forces - as long as you know how they are represented in you mix -, you can get much more info out of your FFB than just feeling the Fm torque force.
Technically speaking, PCars FFB system allows you to mix many different kinds of informations into just one signal (wheel right or left, with different strengths over time) - that's called multiplexing an output signal. On the input side (which is you) your brain de-multiplexes that one signal, and by doing so it re-creates the variety of information that was originally squeezed into it.
But you''re brain's demultiplexing only works, if it has the "demultiplexing key". This key is "generated" while you understand and set your FFB setting BY YOURSELF. That's the reason, why so many people were disappointed about the FFB in the first place: They couldn't decode / demultiplex the wheels behavior. It simply didn't make sense to them. The wheel didn't do right or wrong, it just behaved in "some" way.
So why does the default set FFB of other (more arcade) racing games feel more "right" from the scratch on, without the need of any gliders and knobs to change parameters and setting? Simply because the developers decide to deliver a default setting that they assume it will feel "natural" and intuitive to most of the players. That can be tested and tweaked up to a point that - indeed - it feels "right" to the majority of people. Even if that "feeling right" has nothing to do with reality. Though, what's reality anyway? Reality is what your brain defines to be reality ;-) PCars allows you to engineer your reality just a bit much more precise...
220138
...I'd like to add a bit more background information that may help to understand the complex dynamic processes that "build" the FxFyFzFm-vector-summarization...
..."demultiplexing key"...
Great post!
The hardest part, imo, is to acheive a balance in all that, immersion wise. Thru my test, i could make the cars run like they're on a rail road, move like an overcraft, etc...
It's hard to come to something witch seems real, thru "fake" effects. How don't know how to put it.
You did a great explanation of the thought process behind the FFB Color. It all make sense. With that said, i think there's one optimal way we can see those colors, depending on the hardware. We now have lots of tools to understand the system so we can fine tune it to our taste.
The only grippe i middly have about the system is that it took alot of work and thinking from the forum users to understand how it all work. I wasn't in the WDM phase, witch i regret, seeing how much time i put understanding the FFB system! Some SMS stamps of approval would have been great at some point of the process.
tennenbaum
12-10-2015, 09:11
Great post!
The hardest part, imo, is to acheive a balance in all that, immersion wise. Thru my test, i could make the cars run like they're on a rail road, move like an overcraft, etc...
It's hard to come to something witch seems real, thru "fake" effects. How don't know how to put it.
You did a great explanation of the thought process behind the FFB Color. It all make sense. With that said, i think there's one optimal way we can see those colors, depending on the hardware. We now have lots of tools to understand the system so we can fine tune it to our taste.
The only grippe i middly have about the system is that it took alot of work and thinking from the forum users to understand how it all work. I wasn't in the WDM phase, witch i regret, seeing how much time i put understanding the FFB system! Some SMS stamps of approval would have been great at some point of the process.
Thanks!
When i bought PCars it felt like not buying a racing game but a "Sherlock Holmes Case" called "The Many Mysteries of Force Feedback"
Thanks to the many Sherlocks in the forum the 'scoop functions' got pretty clear now, as well as how 'spindel arm' works (see Ackermann Angle). What I'm still looking for is a solid answer to my ongoing question 'what the heck does soft clip (half) and soft clip (full) do to the signal? We know it's a compressor and limiter tool, though it was never fully answered how both parameters influence the input-output graph (Jack Spade may know it, but didn't really bring light to the darkness). I also still stumble over "relative adjust". I'm happy about every new insight...!
gruzzlebeard
12-10-2015, 10:04
Really good explanation, tennenbaum.
Here is a post with some nice explanations regarding RA. http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?34527-FFB-Experiments-with-Relative-Adjust-parameters&p=1038876&viewfull=1#post1038876
This thread is nice too. It's an empiric description of experiences in "diary form" with some of these miracles http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?34403-My-FFB-testing-blog-or-what-does-what
GrimeyDog
12-10-2015, 11:27
While the FFB process Seems Complicated its Very Simple also.
I've been Screaming for Months that on Console 100% FFB is Not Needed...Thats a Major Stumbling Block with Most just Following the 100% in Game FFB theory... Even if your Global is Set Right and the FFB meter looks Good you will get Clipping at the Wheel that can't be seen in the FFB Graph but the wheel Feels like Trash...
another Good Point was the FY statement... People Dont Realize that Fy,Fx,Fz Represents a 3D model of the Car and Fy Represents the Front Bumper and Provides No Real Road Feel... You Feel it Slightly when at the Top of the Hill in Laguna Seca as your Tires Try and leave the Ground but other than that it takes away More Feel than it Proivides.... IMO there are Just Too Many Setting that can be Seen... Most of them are Redundent and Need to be Hidden behind a advaced Slider Page where most wont mess with them...We see More and want to use them all but in PCars FFB case Less = More because alot of Settings cancel out other settings... It all Starts out with a Good Global Settings Balanced with the Propper In Game FFB to Match your Wheel so you dont get at the Wheel Clipping.
What i Dont understand is when i see tweeks with the In Car Masters set at 36 or below and the Fy,Fx etc set to100 or above...??? Seems to me that No matter how High you set the Fy, Fx etc that the Signal is Limited to what ever you have the Master set at...jmo. I've been using the same Tweek for a while and it Feels Great... I've Recently made changes to the Global Settings and In Game FFB Master after 4.0 update... Seems that they Lowered the FFB strength... or Maybe its just My Global Changes but either way it feels even better Now...I haven't had a Chance to post them or put them in a PDF yet im Still Testing but i will do so soon. The Relative adjust settings is the Key to Good FFB and the Scoop Settings Shapen or Dull the FFB effets by Changing the Slope of the FFB...Scoop Seems to work as Sort of a Damping Effect for the Relative adjust Settings but you control the level.... Ex you can Change the Slope/Force from Steep/Strong to Shallow/Weak at 65, 75, 85 etc or where ever you feel most comfortable. just my theory based on Feel.
One More point is People are Too dapendent on artificial FFB tuning.!!! What ever Happend to Tweek for your FFB taste by Trial and Error??? Thats what this FFB system was designed to be... So it seems the Best oart of PCars is also its Most Damming Part.
tennenbaum
12-10-2015, 11:37
Really good explanation, tennenbaum.
Here is a post with some nice explanations regarding RA. http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?34527-FFB-Experiments-with-Relative-Adjust-parameters&p=1038876&viewfull=1#post1038876
This thread is nice too. It's an empiric description of experiences in "diary form" with some of these miracles http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?34403-My-FFB-testing-blog-or-what-does-what
Great, tpw's explanation reagrading RA is exactly what i was looking for. Thanks!
redruMKO
12-10-2015, 14:31
Amazing post Tennenbaum. Thanks for the insight.
..one tiny moan! I think your conclusion about a well tested FFB default is a bit too Bob Marley. Think how many people must have played this in a terrible default state and then never put in the work required to see it for what it really is. Such a waste!
Constructively though... Where are the Fanatec / Logitech / Thrustmaster guys? ...Like if this happens again in pCars2, and Slightly-Mad have too many different wheels to setup and 'skip' that part... The guys from the companies making our wheels should step up, right? They went to all the trouble of making the hardware and selling it, and they have the knowledge and minds to help us do the final part... without which I may as well be using a Wii "Air-wheel".
Awesome post Tennenbaum! I'm not sure I completely agree with everything but it brings food for thought.
I can try to explain Soft Clip for you but I have to find some proper time and a way to draw some nice curves (or find the ones AJ posted on the old WMD forum). The function is however quite well explained in the actual explanation text within the game. What it does not however is help visualize how the soft clip function looks (aka the knee/curvature of the function).
Personally I love soft clip when used in conjunction with Relative Adjust. Basically what I'm doing is this: I push a fairly tiny signal into the Relative Adjust system, this means I set TF to around 20 or 30 (or in my case I set the individual Master Scale on the various cars to around 6 to 12) and I then crank up Relative Adjust to 140 or so. I then set Relative Adjust Bleed to 0.25 (quarter of a second bleed time) and set Relative Adjust Clamp to 200 (to avoid the "clamp bug" that seems to happen with larger bleed values).
If you leave it as it is you'll have really weak forces, so what do I do? I use Soft Clip (half input) to bump up the low level forces to the range I want. In this case it's usually set to 0.2 or 0.3 (at this moment I have it at 0.2). Finally I set Soft Clip (full output) so that it further shapes the top peaks so that I have virtually zero chance of clipping. Usually I set it to around 1.79 or so. The last step is then to use Steering Gain parameter to bring up the overall FFB so that all my forces are right at the ceiling of clipping.
Keep in mind that I also tweak the individual car Fx, Fz, Fy and Mz forces so that I mainly feel Mz while cornering and Fz and Fx so that I have awesome "information" while threshold breaking or throwing around the car. Fz also helps a lot with the self-aligning torque. If you go Mz only you'll easily run into some strange situations but if you have just a little Fy and a lot of Fz in the mix it all smooths out and makes more sense. This way the FFB never ever gets in the way of driving and I get full understanding of where the limits of the car is. Note that I also use Deadzone Removal Falloff to minimize problematic low level rumble/"wheel going crazy" and usually have Deadzone Removal itself set to zero (due to the way soft clip (half infput) drags up the low level forces).
Final notice: Some cars still feel weird, no matter how hard you tweak the FFB. The usual culprit for this is a combination of Caster, Camber and Tire pressures.
GrimeyDog
13-10-2015, 01:42
PS4 CSW v2...New Global Settings with Tire Force 100, Relative adjust Gain 100, In Game master FFB 35, Advanced setting Off .... Its the best Global yet Feels better than the graph Looks... Very Detailed FFB, Nice Wheel Weight and sharp FFB without the advanced settings on...Will work with the advanced settings on also but wheel has a more Linear Center of wheel feel with advanced off and No Twitchy wheel center.
The better feel Shows in the lap Time!!! Watkins Glen GP Un-tuned Ruf RS8 GT3 1:44.291 Not Even areo was added!!! 1:44.3xx to 1:44.8xx consistently all Night.
Wheel temp Never Went over 98*F with over 3+ Hrs of Tweeking and on line Racing.... Room Temp is 81*F
https://youtu.be/oeRMgHF2gDY
PS4 CSW v2...New Global Settings with Tire Force 100, Relative adjust Gain 100, In Game master FFB 35, Advanced setting Off .... Its the best Global yet Feels better than the graph Looks... Very Detailed FFB, Nice Wheel Weight and sharp FFB without the advanced settings on...Will work with the advanced settings on also but wheel has a more Linear Center of wheel feel with advanced off and No Twitchy wheel center.
I also have these settings on my T500 wheel, but I left Advanced setting On since I don't understand its effects...
b_akerlite
13-10-2015, 11:16
what about bleed and clamp?
nice lap :)
PS4 CSW v2...New Global Settings with Tire Force 100, Relative adjust Gain 100, In Game master FFB 35, Advanced setting Off .... Its the best Global yet Feels better than the graph Looks... Very Detailed FFB, Nice Wheel Weight and sharp FFB without the advanced settings on...Will work with the advanced settings on also but wheel has a more Linear Center of wheel feel with advanced off and No Twitchy wheel center.
The better feel Shows in the lap Time!!! Watkins Glen GP Un-tuned Ruf RS8 GT3 1:44.291 Not Even areo was added!!! 1:44.3xx to 1:44.8xx consistently all Night.
Wheel temp Never Went over 98*F with over 3+ Hrs of Tweeking and on line Racing.... Room Temp is 81*F
https://youtu.be/oeRMgHF2gDY
GrimeyDog
13-10-2015, 11:19
Advanced setting is supposed to be for controlers but when left on with a wheel the Soft Clipping in that setting doe's have a Effect on wheels also....It Gives More FFB Feel in Center of the Wheel and makes the wheel feel Less Linear... I kept it on because it felt Good but i can some times make the Wheel Center Feel Twitchy/Nervouse....With it Off Wheel Center is Tighter/Stronger and More Linear....With My New Global i prefer it off and Have the same Center of wheel Road Feel but Not the Twitchy center of wheel Side effects....Feels Graet with the V2...after i Test them With my TX i will Post them.
tennenbaum
13-10-2015, 20:55
Awesome post Tennenbaum! I'm not sure I completely agree with everything but it brings food for thought.
I can try to explain Soft Clip for you but I have to find some proper time and a way to draw some nice curves (or find the ones AJ posted on the old WMD forum). The function is however quite well explained in the actual explanation text within the game. What it does not however is help visualize how the soft clip function looks (aka the knee/curvature of the function).
Personally I love soft clip when used in conjunction with Relative Adjust. Basically what I'm doing is this: I push a fairly tiny signal into the Relative Adjust system, this means I set TF to around 20 or 30 (or in my case I set the individual Master Scale on the various cars to around 6 to 12) and I then crank up Relative Adjust to 140 or so. I then set Relative Adjust Bleed to 0.25 (quarter of a second bleed time) and set Relative Adjust Clamp to 200 (to avoid the "clamp bug" that seems to happen with larger bleed values).
If you leave it as it is you'll have really weak forces, so what do I do? I use Soft Clip (half input) to bump up the low level forces to the range I want. In this case it's usually set to 0.2 or 0.3 (at this moment I have it at 0.2). Finally I set Soft Clip (full output) so that it further shapes the top peaks so that I have virtually zero chance of clipping. Usually I set it to around 1.79 or so. The last step is then to use Steering Gain parameter to bring up the overall FFB so that all my forces are right at the ceiling of clipping.
Keep in mind that I also tweak the individual car Fx, Fz, Fy and Mz forces so that I mainly feel Mz while cornering and Fz and Fx so that I have awesome "information" while threshold breaking or throwing around the car. Fz also helps a lot with the self-aligning torque. If you go Mz only you'll easily run into some strange situations but if you have just a little Fy and a lot of Fz in the mix it all smooths out and makes more sense. This way the FFB never ever gets in the way of driving and I get full understanding of where the limits of the car is. Note that I also use Deadzone Removal Falloff to minimize problematic low level rumble/"wheel going crazy" and usually have Deadzone Removal itself set to zero (due to the way soft clip (half infput) drags up the low level forces).
Final notice: Some cars still feel weird, no matter how hard you tweak the FFB. The usual culprit for this is a combination of Caster, Camber and Tire pressures.
I'm likely not familiar with the latest optimized FFB settings, but your setting seems quite different than most other settings I saw here in the forum. ...even more interesting to see how it feels. Let me try your setting and I will come back with a more practical feedback:)
Still, I'm wondering how the input-output curve looks like when you set Soft Clip (half input) to 0.2. I read the in-game explanation like this: input 0.2 goes up to 0.5 output, what about the other values? An 0.4 input will be lifted also to 0.5, as well as an 0.8 input will be lowered to 0.5 output, too? Hhm, that would lead to a straight horizontal I/O graph-line positioned at an output level of 0,5 no matter what the input value is.:confused:
Instead (hypothetically, i have no proof or hint that soft clip works like that): e.g. 0.2 is the multiplier for input values, therefore tilting a one-to-one 45 degree I/O linear line to a five-to-one approx. 20 degrees graph-line. Then you lift up the entire pretty flat I/O graph-line again (or before, as the in-game explanation says) with the help of the Soft Clipper (full input). Therefore lifting up the entire graph (O=0.2 x I + X) until it reaches 100% (=1.0) output. That way you lift the lower tire forces for sure without lifting the higher forces into clipping. That's "compressor-like". Each way, i find the wording of Soft Clip (half an full) odd, to say the least.
Anyway, don't mind , i don't wanna be too meticulous about it. I'm getting easily carried away with such tech stuff riddles ;-)
GrimeyDog
14-10-2015, 01:43
Can Each person post What Wheel Feel they are trying to Create.. There Are alot of ways to get Different wheel Feel...The Scoop Settings are Really Good to Controle the FFB Graph and Create a more Linear wheel feel....There is No way to keep the Graph line off the Top and Bottom as long as it doesn't Flat Line on top or bottom its ok....For me its all about the Global Settings Right Now Balancing them to work Right.. Its all Starting to come together.
SUBGTRACER
14-10-2015, 03:56
T500 user ps4
Ok , Hello all I have been playing with setting like most of you have from day one ......... After reading your thoughts on the FFB being the main scaler in the game for a console I could not agree more as I have tried jack spades settings and road feel isnt right and the curbs are just too harsh they want to rip me off the track , and that isn't realistic at all.
When I started with Pcars I was using the FFB to dial things down and up and thing felt good I will be giving your Tweeks a shot tonight Grimmey and I will post back .......
The thing that made me wonder last night was that I used a DLC car that has not been set with Jack spade settings (default settings ) and the car felt so much better so much more informative then with the cars I have previously set. So my mind started to wonder about it and in turn made me find this Post .
I will use your setting to a tee and tweek from there grimmey .......Thanks gentlemen ..... I will let you know how I go .
I don't have the new patch yet . Will download tonight.
vahagn_hayk
14-10-2015, 03:57
did patch 5.0 change anything? impact on wheel feeling? FFB system?
GrimeyDog
14-10-2015, 06:25
T500 user ps4
Ok , Hello all I have been playing with setting like most of you have from day one ......... After reading your thoughts on the FFB being the main scaler in the game for a console I could not agree more as I have tried jack spades settings and road feel isnt right and the curbs are just too harsh they want to rip me off the track , and that isn't realistic at all.
When I started with Pcars I was using the FFB to dial things down and up and thing felt good I will be giving your Tweeks a shot tonight Grimmey and I will post back .......
The thing that made me wonder last night was that I used a DLC car that has not been set with Jack spade settings (default settings ) and the car felt so much better so much more informative then with the cars I have previously set. So my mind started to wonder about it and in turn made me find this Post .
I will use your setting to a tee and tweek from there grimmey .......Thanks gentlemen ..... I will let you know how I go .
I don't have the new patch yet . Will download tonight.
With the TM wheels you will Have to Find your wheels in Game Master FFB Sweet Spot... Also Try the in Car Settings in the PDF as is but the settings within the in car Masters can be set to any way you want to bring out the feel thats right for you.
SUBGTRACER
14-10-2015, 06:48
cheers Grimmeydog
Jack Spade
14-10-2015, 07:03
T500 user ps4
Ok , Hello all I have been playing with setting like most of you have from day one ......... After reading your thoughts on the FFB being the main scaler in the game for a console I could not agree more as I have tried jack spades settings and road feel isnt right and the curbs are just too harsh they want to rip me off the track , and that isn't realistic at all.
When I started with Pcars I was using the FFB to dial things down and up and thing felt good I will be giving your Tweeks a shot tonight Grimmey and I will post back .......
The thing that made me wonder last night was that I used a DLC car that has not been set with Jack spade settings (default settings ) and the car felt so much better so much more informative then with the cars I have previously set. So my mind started to wonder about it and in turn made me find this Post .
I will use your setting to a tee and tweek from there grimmey .......Thanks gentlemen ..... I will let you know how I go .
I don't have the new patch yet . Will download tonight.
If you want the kerbs less harsh you should use a bit of smoothing or low pass on Fz/SopDiff. thatīs one of the reasons we have it in game. BTW the harshness of kerbs was
discussed in WMD and our professional consultants confirmed that many of those kerbs can be very nasty sometimes in RW.
SUBGTRACER
14-10-2015, 07:22
Thank you for your response jack , I will up the smoothing and see how it goes , before making major changes ....
GrimeyDog
14-10-2015, 08:50
Thank you for your response jack , I will up the smoothing and see how it goes , before making major changes ....
Use the FZ setting and you can Dial in your personal bump feel for every car.... Ruff RGT8 GT3 is bumpy so you may want it low while the GT3 Bently is Smooth so you may want more Curb feel... No Prob just turn FZ up a Tad... Sooo Many Variables... I dont do smoothing because it Effects/Dampens all the Forces if you know whats wrong Go for the source... In this case to Kill some Bump Harshness it would be FZ and Sop Diff i like to keep those the same #.... Go for the source dont do a blanket Cover up.
GrimeyDog
14-10-2015, 10:13
did patch 5.0 change anything? impact on wheel feeling? FFB system?
5.0 update.... Every time they make changes to the Tracks or Cars i Reset/Delete My Pcars Profile because the cars dont seem to Drive the same until i do... I Noticed that with 4.0 once i Deleted everything online Profile and HD profile Total Reset it went back to Norm.
GrimeyDog
14-10-2015, 10:27
The thing that made me wonder last night was that I used a DLC car that has not been set with Jack spade settings (default settings ) and the car felt so much better so much more informative then with the cars I have previously set. So my mind started to wonder about it and in turn made me find this Post .
Thus is the Key point to All your Questions and Doubts...It cant Hurt to try a New way and see if its Right for you. I've Yried this Tweek with my TM TX 458 and it feels Great just as Good as My V2 just less powerfull... But that doesn't matter because i only use 75% on wheel FFB with the V2 its Too Strong.... Once you dial in your In Game Master FFB you will be Fine.... With the TX i used 65% or 75% in Game Master FFB and its Beautiful...You just have to find the level thats Right for you.
This Tweek is 1 stop Shopping i can use the same settings in Every Car and they all Feel Great...FFB is Ment to Provide input as to what the Road Feels like and what your car is doing... Its Not ment to be a Short cut to Car Tunining and thats what Many are Trying to do with the FFB system... I find with a Wheel that the standard Car Suspension is set very well and Good enough to Run Really Good Laps... Then if you want More you tweek the suspension.
redruMKO
14-10-2015, 16:11
Can Each person post What Wheel Feel they are trying to Create.. There Are alot of ways to get Different wheel Feel...The Scoop Settings are Really Good to Controle the FFB Graph and Create a more Linear wheel feel....There is No way to keep the Graph line off the Top and Bottom as long as it doesn't Flat Line on top or bottom its ok....For me its all about the Global Settings Right Now Balancing them to work Right.. Its all Starting to come together.
It is all coming together! And I agree it's all about the globals.
I'm aiming for as general a setup as possible. -Zero changes per car.
There can be a big range among the cars... some heavy some light etc... as I expect it was intended.
I would like to use 1OO% of the force of my wheel, but not all the time... Maximum-G cornering in a Formula A should be 'heavy'. But the 'middle of the wheel', especially in road cars should not be 'aggressive' or hard to direct.
..and this is the hardest one to describe.... When I tweek, i'm testing to see if the forces help me 'catch' an oversteer. A lot of the time [with randomised FFB settings], in the V8 Atom, as soon as you oversteer, you realise that it was impossible to catch/correct. With better ffb, you can make an initial 'catch' quite repeatably, but if you over-correct and need to make another opposite-lock catch, that one feels impossible. ...now, with seemingly near-perfect ffb, I can chuck that car from side to side over and over, and never be scared of losing it completely.... like it is in real-life in a good handling vehicle...
GrimeyDog
14-10-2015, 16:58
It is all coming together! And I agree it's all about the globals.
I'm aiming for as general a setup as possible. -Zero changes per car.
There can be a big range among the cars... some heavy some light etc... as I expect it was intended.
I would like to use 1OO% of the force of my wheel, but not all the time... Maximum-G cornering in a Formula A should be 'heavy'. But the 'middle of the wheel', especially in road cars should not be 'aggressive' or hard to direct.
..and this is the hardest one to describe.... When I tweek, i'm testing to see if the forces help me 'catch' an oversteer. A lot of the time [with randomised FFB settings], in the V8 Atom, as soon as you oversteer, you realise that it was impossible to catch/correct. With better ffb, you can make an initial 'catch' quite repeatably, but if you over-correct and need to make another opposite-lock catch, that one feels impossible. ...now, with seemingly near-perfect ffb, I can chuck that car from side to side over and over, and never be scared of losing it completely.... like it is in real-life in a good handling vehicle...
What Settings are you using???
redruMKO
14-10-2015, 18:34
What Settings are you using???
It's NUMBERWANG! ...round seven. G29 vs PS4 [bold variables are the ones specific to each wheel]
Tire Force = 1OO
Per Wheel Movement = -O.O4
Per Wheel Move Squared = 0.O4
Wheel position Smoothing = 0.06
Deadzone Removal Range = 0.16
Deadzone Removal Falloff = .021
Linkage Scale = 0.0O
Linkage Stiffness = 1.OO
Linkage Damp = 1.OO
Relative Adjust Gain = 1.2O
Relative Adjust Bleed = O.33
Relative Adjust Clamp = 1.13
Scoop Knee = 0.54
Scoop Reduction = 0.26
Soft clipping Half = O
Soft Clip Full = O
Menu Spring Strength = O.3O
Low speed Spring Coefficent = 1.OO
Low Speed Spring Saturation = 0.27
Steering Gain = 1.OO
Deadzones all ZERO
Steering Sensitivity = 5O
Throttle = 33
Braking = 18
Clutch = 25
Speed Sensitivity = O
Control Filter = O
Damper Sat = O
FFB = 1OO
RPM gear = YES
Controller Input Mode = 3
Advanced = OFF
Soft Steering Dampening = ON
Visual Wheel Filter = ON
Opposite Lock Help = OFF
All AIDS / assists OFF except for ABS and auto-clutch/gears
[Works with or without JS setups. I do not use them myself now, but do use his increased Mz smoothing [1O on all cars] otherwise you can get 'the noises' when correcting skids.]
Grimey, I posted this in the other FFB thread, I don't know if you saw it I've been using your v.9 settings for quite some time. After downloading patch 5.0 I noticed I get shakes or jitters in straights, but smooth through turns. I then put in what I think is your latest settings and now the opposite is happening. It's smooth in straights but a lot more shivers/jitters in turns. I also noticed with these settings the wheel feels lighter but just a tad to lite for my taste. I turned up MZ to 120 but it didn't seem to make a difference. Can you give me some advice on what I should do? Thanks so much
GrimeyDog
15-10-2015, 10:57
Grimey, I posted this in the other FFB thread, I don't know if you saw it I've been using your v.9 settings for quite some time. After downloading patch 5.0 I noticed I get shakes or jitters in straights, but smooth through turns. I then put in what I think is your latest settings and now the opposite is happening. It's smooth in straights but a lot more shivers/jitters in turns. I also noticed with these settings the wheel feels lighter but just a tad to lite for my taste. I turned up MZ to 120 but it didn't seem to make a difference. Can you give me some advice on what I should do? Thanks so much
I Noticed the Same thing... I Had to Delete the Game including Hard Drive Game Save Profile and Cloud Game Save Profile... Then Re-Instal PCars with a Freash 5.0 Down Load to get it back to Norm... The Steering is Lighter after the update!!! Im Using 85% On wheel FFB Now....in 4.0 they Made Adjustments to the Tire Grip and i think thats why the steering is Lighter...Turning the MZ up is Not the answer... MZ is the Wheel Centering Force (Makes the Wheel Snap back to center Harder)...Try Not to Turn anything up over 100....there are 2 ways to get the wheel weight Back....1) Turn the in Game FFB up until it Feels Right... i put mine at 35 for Now......2) Turn the Fy setting up until you get the Right wheel weight.......After you do that if the Weight Transfer Feel seems Light and you want more weight Tranfer feel Turn the Sop Lat up and Test until its Good for you.
PS4 CSW v2...New Global Settings with Tire Force 100, Relative adjust Gain 100, In Game master FFB 35, Advanced setting Off .... Its the best Global yet Feels better than the graph Looks... Very Detailed FFB, Nice Wheel Weight and sharp FFB without the advanced settings on...Will work with the advanced settings on also but wheel has a more Linear Center of wheel feel with advanced off and No Twitchy wheel center.
The better feel Shows in the lap Time!!! Watkins Glen GP Un-tuned Ruf RS8 GT3 1:44.291 Not Even areo was added!!! 1:44.3xx to 1:44.8xx consistently all Night.
Wheel temp Never Went over 98*F with over 3+ Hrs of Tweeking and on line Racing.... Room Temp is 81*F
https://youtu.be/oeRMgHF2gDY
Do you still have such a dynamic FFB signal after the new patch, I feel like if a smoothing process has been applied and the signal is less fluctuating with the same settings???
GrimeyDog
15-10-2015, 11:32
Do you still have such a dynamic FFB signal after the new patch, I feel like if a smoothing process has been applied and the signal is less fluctuating with the same settings???
Seems that with the Last 2 patches I had to Delete All my Game Data and Re-Instal PCars with a Fresh update Download to get it back to feeling Right.... Seems that when they Make Changes to the Tires or Adjust Tracks that it Screws things up until you do a Total Reset Game, Hard Drive Game save Profile and Cloud Game Save... I had to Delete all and Start Fresh to get it back to the Norm.
redruMKO
15-10-2015, 17:32
Seems that with the Last 2 patches I had to Delete All my Game Data and Re-Instal PCars with a Fresh update Download to get it back to feeling Right.... Seems that when they Make Changes to the Tires or Adjust Tracks that it Screws things up until you do a Total Reset Game, Hard Drive Game save Profile and Cloud Game Save... I had to Delete all and Start Fresh to get it back to the Norm.
I have just been deleting my profile file. This seems to reset all my car setups, and also general FFB/ control config.
What extra things get reset by deleting your cloud game save?
And what do you mean by Total Reset Game? [like delete installed stuff, but not downloaded patches??]
GrimeyDog
15-10-2015, 17:40
I have just been deleting my profile file. This seems to reset all my car setups, and also general FFB/ control config.
What extra things get reset by deleting your cloud game save?
And what do you mean by Total Reset Game? [like delete installed stuff, but not downloaded patches??]
Total Reset is you have to delete the Cloud and Hard Drive Game save Data...if you dont do that it will still have old Game info and the reset wont work.
GrimeyDog
16-10-2015, 10:22
Post your Global Settings...I Have New Global Relative ajust and Scoop Settings... i think they are Very Good and would like to Try them VS other Global Settings....I am Convinced that the Global Settings is the Key to Good FFB in PCars!!! The Most important Settings are the ***Relative adjust settings and the Scoop Settings***
Post your Global Settings...I Have New Global Relative ajust and Scoop Settings... i think they are Very Good and would like to Try them VS other Global Settings....I am Convinced that the Global Settings is the Key to Good FFB in PCars!!! The Most important Settings are the ***Relative adjust settings and the Scoop Settings***
Grimeydog i agree 100% on your last posts.I deleled everything for patch 3.0 as it didnt seem to work right same with 4.0.I tried it without and though it was just me at first but something weird definitely happens if you dont delete everything and reload the game. If you watch the telemetry youll notice alot of nothing happening when you know you should be feeling something if you dont start fresh. Also i played with the relative adjust stuff too last night as my wheel always felt overly heavy to me. Relative clamp really seems to bring out the forces we are looking for,the lower ones. Seems to me it needs to be set lower than .95 by a bit.Finally starting to get this now i think after months of testing.Bleed is time based but .10 is a little low .20-.30 seems to work pretty good at .10 the forces bleed off so fast you barely feel them. Relative adjust gain is basically the volume for these forces so set to your liking. I found if you turn it up too much it starts to feel weird. Nice bonus is when you lower the clamp value it lightens the wheel while bringing out the lower more subtle forces we are looking for.I dont have exact numbers yet as i ran out of time but im getting pretty close.It felt really good last night.
Imho, all the tools are as important as each other. It's a matter of balance.
Per wheel movement section is about how snappy or sluggish the wheel is.
Deadzones and scoops is the balance(or linearity) of the forces your wheel output.
Relative Adjusts shapes the behavior of torques changes.
Car FFB is the color of the FFB for a given car.
Each steps is important because they complement each others.
GrimeyDog
16-10-2015, 11:23
I turned the Advanced Tab Off and Now
Tire Force 98
Relative settings at 98, 12, 92
Scoop is 68, 16
Try those #'s out... Let me Know what you think.
gruzzlebeard
16-10-2015, 11:44
I'm testing exactly on the same topics like you guys. Still testing to find the sweet point with Global FFB 35-50, TF 90-120, Rel Adjust and Steering Gain finally. After that I will revisit Scoop , Deadzone and Wheel movements once again.
Currently I try to avoid to reduce the CSW V2 in wheel FF - if I need this as well I will adjust it at the end of the session. But I don't want to mess with Global and in-wheel FF at the same time. First I want to understand the right ratio between the in-game settings.
GrimeyDog
16-10-2015, 13:12
Relative and Scoop setting work together... Relative settings Controle FFB torque/Power and The Scoop settings Fine tune the Relative settings Shapens or Dulls the FFB out put.
redruMKO
16-10-2015, 17:59
Total Reset is you have to delete the Cloud and Hard Drive Game save Data...if you dont do that it will still have old Game info and the reset wont work.
I don't have PSPLus, so it wont let me into the cloud-save options [and I assume it is not doing any cloud saving]
So I just deleted the 1Omeg game profile file, but cant find anything else to delete [except ghosts and the main game itself, which would mean DLing huge patches again].
GrimeyDog
16-10-2015, 18:29
as long as all your Car set ups are Deleted then you have deleted the Propper save game files... you dont have to delete the Replay/Ghost info.
delahosh
16-10-2015, 20:45
No Need to delete anything, everything works fine with the right FFB-Settings - T500/PS4
DRR 0.03 / DRF 0.006 is my Sweetspot.
FFB 48
TF 68
SK 0.70
SKR 0.10
No Softclips
(Scoops are Work in Progress)
Greatings from good old Germany ;-)
Spitfire77
16-10-2015, 22:30
as long as all your Car set ups are Deleted then you have deleted the Propper save game files... you dont have to delete the Replay/Ghost info.
Is SMS telling you guys to delete your profile/game install to fix an issue you reported with the FFB after the 5.0 patch? What is the issue exactly (I haven't played since the 5.0 patch but will tonight or tomorrow) and did they admit there was an issue?
Why is it still acceptable to go through this process of deleting everything? Is it not fixed by just resetting the controller settings to default?
SUBGTRACER
17-10-2015, 01:33
No Need to delete anything, everything works fine with the right FFB-Settings - T500/PS4
DRR 0.03 / DRF 0.006 is my Sweetspot.
FFB 48
TF 68
SK 0.70
SKR 0.10
No Softclips
(Scoops are Work in Progress)
Greatings from good old Germany ;-)
Put your settings in this morning they are pretty sweet bud . Cheers .... What's drr and drf.
Deadzone removal and deadzone falloff i believe.
Has anyone been able to get the Fanatec GT2 to feel good after p5.0 if so could you post some settings please.
Deadzone removal and deadzone falloff i believe. (drr/drf)
Has anyone been able to get the Fanatec GT2 to feel good after p5.0 if so could you post some settings please.
delahosh
17-10-2015, 06:40
Put your settings in this morning they are pretty sweet bud . Cheers .... What's drr and drf.
Deadzone Removal Range
Deadzone Removal Falloff
If your Wheel feels loose and rumbles on Straights you should tweak these 2 Settings.
Oops double post
That's a trippple post! ;)
There's a delete button if you go advanced edit mode. It'll be at the top of the advanced page. You enter a reason it think and it's gone!
Cheers!
Last night I was trying a few different things with Grimey's settings since patch 5.0 made my wheel feel differently to my liking. I couldn't really get it to how I wanted so I went to the Classic settings. From there I did a little tweaking to the in car settings and it's feeling pretty good Though the wheel feels a little to lite for my liking. I'm guessing I'm gonna have to delete and Re install. Hoping from there Grimey's settings will work. I just hate to have to start career and all tunes over again. But what do I do? Just delete the profile in game?
smartin13
17-10-2015, 22:04
save the profile
Relative and Scoop setting work together... Relative settings Controle FFB torque/Power and The Scoop settings Fine tune the Relative settings Shapens or Dulls the FFB out put.
Eh? This is not true at all. They are two completely separate and different systems. Please read the PDF that is floating around here somewhere on how the FFB works. Scoop is sort of "re-mapping" of the input vs output FFB so that it can linearize your consumer wheel. Relative Adjust is something completely different and quite unique (and one of the FFB systems that is still ambiguous, even considering the information in the PDF.. but it's definitely a fairly flexible dynamics processor of some sort).
I'm just correcting you here so that we minimize the misinformation and pure speculation. If you are talking in terms of "how it feels" then please say so.. it's a good way to separate actual factual underlying mechanics to "feel based" descriptions simply by stating so.
smartin13
17-10-2015, 22:08
save the profile.its in steam/userdata/27442755/234630/local/project cars
SUBGTRACER
17-10-2015, 22:12
Grimmey you should be commended for trying to help the community + 100 bud
That's a trippple post! ;)
There's a delete button if you go advanced edit mode. It'll be at the top of the advanced page. You enter a reason it think and it's gone!
Cheers!
Double triple whats it matter . Just goes in with all the other shitty post in this forum i guess.
GrimeyDog
17-10-2015, 23:54
Eh? This is not true at all. They are two completely separate and different systems. Please read the PDF that is floating around here somewhere on how the FFB works. Scoop is sort of "re-mapping" of the input vs output FFB so that it can linearize your consumer wheel. Relative Adjust is something completely different and quite unique (and one of the FFB systems that is still ambiguous, even considering the information in the PDF.. but it's definitely a fairly flexible dynamics processor of some sort).
I'm just correcting you here so that we minimize the misinformation and pure speculation. If you are talking in terms of "how it feels" then please say so.. it's a good way to separate actual factual underlying mechanics to "feel based" descriptions simply by stating so.
You said the Exact thing that i said just using Different words...I said it Sharpens or Dulls the FFB and you said Linearize the FFB... Basicaly both post Give same overal end result of Relative and Scoop just with different words... JMO and the FFB PDF thats Floating around i Have it but...Eeeh it wasn't too informative or Helpful to Me.
GrimeyDog
18-10-2015, 00:00
Last night I was trying a few different things with Grimey's settings since patch 5.0 made my wheel feel differently to my liking. I couldn't really get it to how I wanted so I went to the Classic settings. From there I did a little tweaking to the in car settings and it's feeling pretty good Though the wheel feels a little to lite for my liking. I'm guessing I'm gonna have to delete and Re install. Hoping from there Grimey's settings will work. I just hate to have to start career and all tunes over again. But what do I do? Just delete the profile in game?
Sorry to say but Deleting My Profile was the only way i was abke to get the Good wheel Feel Back... I have given up on Starting a Seiouse Career until the updates are Finished... Seems like when there are Track or Tire ajustments made that a Total Reset is Needed... Just How it worked for me others may have better Luck without a Total Reset.
Well as much as I hate to do a total reset, I feel it'll be good not only for FFB but also my career. I finished one season and signed a contract for a second season driving a McLaren. Thing is I'm almost gone through the whole calendar year and I've only had 2 races in the McLaren. Everything else has been invitationals. I'm also wondering if the actual career mode is fixed. I forget the name of the mode but it's where you start from bottom and move up. But how is it that I started my f rest season in karts and my second season is driving a McLaren. This hasn't made sense to me and hope it's been fixed. By the way, does anyone know how f the Fanatec ebrake works with Pcars now?
GrimeyDog
18-10-2015, 03:40
I Have The wheel Feeling Good again but Some of the Tracks and Cars Feel Different... Seems like i Cant push as Hard in Corners... Maybe thats the Tire and Track adjusments that were made... I dunno... but wheel Feels Good again and im back to in Game Master FFB 25% and on Wheel FFB 75%... i Have the Advanced settings Tab Turned Off which Gives the Wheel a More Linear Feel!!!
Pistonprick
18-10-2015, 04:49
Keep up the good work Grimey , I'm only using the Thrustmaster t100 but any advice from the community to improve ffb is helps , cheers
Reset the game and started my career in karts. Kind of hard to tell with that vehicle but I think Grimey's settings are feeling good again. But came across a new, old bug. Anytime I finish 2nd or 3rd the final results and podium puts me as 1st place.
GrimeyDog
18-10-2015, 15:25
Try these Relative and Soop Settings.
in Game Master FFB i use 25 but you can set that to best match your wheel.
Advanced Off =More Linear
Advanced On = Less Linear
Tire Force 98
Relative
98
12
92
Scoop
68
18
In Car i still use my same settings but you can set in Car to best match what you mist want to feel.
SUBGTRACER
18-10-2015, 21:03
More linear =?
Less Linear = ?
SUBGTRACER
18-10-2015, 21:05
I have a bit of dead zone for a few degree around centre , how do I remove that ? T500 rs
GrimeyDog
18-10-2015, 21:18
More linear =?
Less Linear = ?
Advanced on Non Linear Has Soft Clipping on inside that setting which Boost the Lowest signal up to keep them in a Specified range and same thing for the High/Stronger FFB it Clips them to keep them within a Specified Range makes the Wheel feel Even....
Lineare No Signal is Boosted or Clipped unless you have Half or Full Clipping on...Wheel Torgue is Contant with no Fall Off until that FFB Peak Has run its cycle... Wheel Feels more Powerful and Less Twitchy around center with advanced Off
They Both feel Good You just have to test and see which on you like best.
SUBGTRACER
18-10-2015, 21:23
Thank you mate will test tonight . Prompt as per usual Grimey.
SUBGTRACER
18-10-2015, 21:28
Show us your rig grimey and I will show you mine :)
I have a bit of dead zone for a few degree around centre , how do I remove that ? T500 rs
Why don t you use the specific parameters for this, the deazone removal range and falloff?
Advanced on Non Linear Has Soft Clipping on inside that setting which Boost the Lowest signal up to keep them in a Specified range and same thing for the High/Stronger FFB it Clips them to keep them within a Specified Range makes the Wheel feel Even....
Lineare No Signal is Boosted or Clipped unless you have Half or Full Clipping on...Wheel Torgue is Contant with no Fall Off until that FFB Peak Has run its cycle... Wheel Feels more Powerful and Less Twitchy around center with advanced Off
They Both feel Good You just have to test and see which on you like best.
Really? Because the soft clipping parameters remain on 0 when activating advanced settings, so I didn t figure it out.
I had turn advanced off since patch 5 to have a more linear signal.That s maybe why I felt the wheel less dynamic on the small signals these days.
SUBGTRACER
19-10-2015, 06:28
I that the setting that turns itself of all the time grimmey ? Do I have to set this every time I play ?
GrimeyDog
19-10-2015, 08:47
Either Leave advanved on or Off just set it and forget it... I dont change the settings within the advanced tab... Either you like the advanced setting on feel or you like it off feel better.
GrimeyDog
19-10-2015, 08:49
Really? Because the soft clipping parameters remain on 0 when activating advanced settings, so I didn t figure it out.
I had turn advanced off since patch 5 to have a more linear signal.That s maybe why I felt the wheel less dynamic on the small signals these days.
That is exactly the case... that setting has its own pre set soft clipping Values built in it that are not adjustable.
gruzzlebeard
19-10-2015, 10:18
Try these Relative and Soop Settings.
in Game Master FFB i use 25 but you can set that to best match your wheel.
Advanced Off =More Linear
Advanced On = Less Linear
Tire Force 98
Relative
98
12
92
Scoop
68
18
In Car i still use my same settings but you can set in Car to best match what you mist want to feel.
I can confirm that with Relative Adjust 98/12/92 I'm getting quite nice feedback, but not with your scoop settings. I use after long testing SK 86 / SR 28. But I have other FFB adjustments like you're using.
Wheel FF 100, In-game FFB 50, TF 100, SG 1.0,
RUF GT3 at Watkins Glen settings according to Jack Spade presets but Master Scale + SoP Scale x 2 = 64:
MSc: 64
Fx: 150
FY: 30
Fz: 132
MZ: 80
FX Smooth: 20
MZ Smooth: 10
SoPSc: 64
Sop LatSc: 90
SoP DiffSc: 100
The wheel feel and Telemetry oscillations are quite balanced to my taste. Maybe I'll try to squeeze out slightly higher amplitudes - I guess I've to tweak a bit RA. I assume that GrimeyDog's telemetry amplitudes are much higher then mine. I will share a video this evening CET.
EDIT: Is it possible that Relative Adjust settings are impacting the wheel linearity? Because my Scoop setting are now exactly those which I used after I changed in the CSW V2 in-wheel Drift settings to DRI "003" (what makes the wheel smoother or heavier). Now I'm not using DRI in the wheel anymore but Scoop feels much better with these settings. So from somewhere there is an impact and it is not PWM/PWMS/PWS. It's coming from somewhere else?!
The way i see RAs is that it makes the wheel respond to surface change. I don't know about numbers but here it goes.
There's probably a way to balance RAG and RAC to:
have less feeling than the surface will send to the wheel
have equal feeling than the surface will send to the wheel
have more feeling than the surface will send to the wheel
GrimeyDog
19-10-2015, 12:54
I can confirm that with Relative Adjust 98/12/92 I'm getting quite nice feedback, but not with your scoop settings. I use after long testing SK 86 / SR 28. But I have other FFB adjustments like you're using.
Wheel FF 100, In-game FFB 50, TF 100, SG 1.0,
RUF GT3 at Watkins Glen settings according to Jack Spade presets but Master Scale + SoP Scale x 2 = 64:
MSc: 64
Fx: 150
FY: 30
Fz: 132
MZ: 80
FX Smooth: 20
MZ Smooth: 10
SoPSc: 64
Sop LatSc: 90
SoP DiffSc: 100
The wheel feel and Telemetry oscillations are quite balanced to my taste. Maybe I'll try to squeeze out slightly higher amplitudes - I guess I've to tweak a bit RA. I assume that GrimeyDog's telemetry amplitudes are much higher then mine. I will share a video this evening CET.
EDIT: Is it possible that Relative Adjust settings are impacting the wheel linearity? Because my Scoop setting are now exactly those which I used after I changed in the CSW V2 in-wheel Drift settings to DRI "003" (what makes the wheel smoother or heavier). Now I'm not using DRI in the wheel anymore but Scoop feels much better with these settings. So from somewhere there is an impact and it is not PWM/PWMS/PWS. It's coming from somewhere else?!
RA Only adjust How Much Torque is applyed or Bled Off When Hitting Curbs Bumps or Road Surface Changes.... It Bleeds off or adds Torque to change the Wheel weight and create Road Feel, Weight Transfer etc.
Scoop sets the Slope(Shallow/Dull or Steep/Harsh) of the FFB Forces... top # Sets the Curve/Slope of the Stronger Forces bottom sets the Curve/Slop of lower Forces.... Just My Theory.
Edit: IMO the Scoop impacts Wheel Linearity...
Have you Tried those Sop with My in car Settings and the Advanced Setiings Tab Off and On to Compair the Difference between the two feelings?
Also Fx,Fy,Fz is a 3D image of the Car with Fx Representing the Front Bumper IMO that setting Provides very Little Feeling about whats going on with the Car and Should be set Low and the Fy= Left and Right Should be set Higher to Give More Weught transfer Feel...Fx= Vertical/Bump, Curb Feel Should be set according to how Strong you want to feel Those effects.
Edit: I dont use any Dri Settings and my Spr and Dpr are 100...and with the V2 having such Precise steering input all of my PWM settings are 0 so i can Have 1 to 1 wheel Movement Sync with the Game.... IMO other wheels may need the PWM but the V2, T300 and TX do Not.... Not sure about the T500.
SUBGTRACER
19-10-2015, 14:24
I turned on advanced and it feels heaps better with t500 so much easier for me to correct when losing rear traction .
GrimeyDog
19-10-2015, 14:28
I turned advanced and it feels heaps better with t500 so much easier for me to correct when losing rear traction .
Did you turn it Off or On?
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